Orans Position during Our Father

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thunderballs75

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Now I know it is very traditionalist to only have the priest doing the orans position of prayer. My question is this:

How grounded is this in the apostles and tradition? Why?

I also go to a Melkite Catholic Church. They are very traditional, more-so than any parish with the exception of maybe the EF parish. And I would find it very hard to believe that they are introducing a liturgical abuse. Yet, whenever the Our Father is said here, all the people do the Orans along with the priest. So is it really incorrect?
 
thunderballs75 said:
Now I know it is very traditionalist to only have the priest doing the orans position of prayer. My question is this:

How grounded is this in the apostles and tradition? Why?

I also go to a Melkite Catholic Church. They are very traditional, more-so than any parish with the exception of maybe the EF parish. And I would find it very hard to believe that they are introducing a liturgical abuse. Yet, whenever the Our Father is said here, all the people do the Orans along with the priest. So is it really incorrect?
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This is an ancient and traditional posture of prayer for Christians. Catholic or not, ordained or not.
 
diggerdomer said:
This is an ancient and traditional posture of prayer for Christians. Catholic or not, ordained or not.
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I know this. But what I’m asking is, how traditional it is for only the priest to do it during Mass or Divine Liturgy. Do the Eastern Catholics/Orthodox lay people use the orans posture during Divine Liturgy (I know that they outside of that setting)?
 
The Orans posture during the Lord’s Prayer is a VERY Antiochian custom.

It’s done by Melkites, Antiochian Orthodox, Maronites, Syriac Orthodox, Syrian Catholics, and in my limited experience, Assyrians/Chaldeans.

It’s not a “liturgical abuse” at all.
They are very traditional, more-so than any parish with the exception of maybe the EF parish.
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The Melkite liturgical practices are JUST as “traditional” as the EF–and actually older.
 
bpbasilphx said:
The Orans posture during the Lord’s Prayer is a VERY Antiochian custom.

It’s done by Melkites, Antiochian Orthodox, Maronites, Syriac Orthodox, Syrian Catholics, and in my limited experience, Assyrians/Chaldeans.

It’s not a “liturgical abuse” at all.

The Melkite liturgical practices are JUST as “traditional” as the EF–and actually older.
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That’s what I was thinking. What I don’t understand then, is why the lay people in the congregation are discouraged from using the Orans posture during the Our Father in the Latin Church. Hmm…

Maybe it’s just one of those manners of discipline which were changed in the west? I know in the eastern Churches there is no kneeling during the Divine Liturgy, yet it takes place quite a bit at a Latin Church Mass.
 
thunderballs75 said:
I know this. But what I’m asking is, how traditional it is for only the priest to do it during Mass or Divine Liturgy. Do the Eastern Catholics/Orthodox lay people use the orans posture during Divine Liturgy (I know that they outside of that setting)?
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oh, i see, thanks.

I’m not aware of any official discouragement (or encouragement, for that matter) of posture during the Lord’s Prayer at a Roman Rite Mass (except of course for the presider). If it is encouraged or discouraged anywhere, I think that’s a local custom/personal preference.
 
thunderballs75 said:
That’s what I was thinking. What I don’t understand then, is why the lay people in the congregation are discouraged from using the Orans posture during the Our Father in the Latin Church. Hmm…

Maybe it’s just one of those manners of discipline which were changed in the west? I know in the eastern Churches there is no kneeling during the Divine Liturgy, yet it takes place quite a bit at a Latin Church Mass.
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It has to do with the different rites and how the “mass/divine liturgy” ritual is performed. Now, I’m not entirely clear, specifically, on who wrote the Divine Liturgy. I believe it was St. Basil the Great. I know that Byzantines celebrate a version of Divine Liturgy from St. John Chrysostom. (I think he shortened it or something … ? :confused:)

Where as with the Mass, Latin Rite, it’s a different rite and was started by someone else. (eeps! I don’t even know who wrote it or started it.) So it’s not like the Latin Rite “should be” like Eastern Rite.

Remember, there are different rites within the Catholic church. There are differences but it’s all Catholic. One notable difference I wish the Latin Rite Catholics would have but don’t, and Eastern Rite does, is Chrismation. Latin Rite separates Baptism, First Communion, and Confirmation. Eastern Rite does it all at once for the baby. (Which I think is pretty cool.) Side story: I got confirmed at the ripe old age of 40 this past pentecost. My beau’s neice had had her Chrismation a month prior. When her mother came to my confirmation service she, of course, brought her baby. I felt badly because I knew wee neice wasn’t going to be able to get communion at Mass, yet, at Divine Liturgy, she’d get communion, and she’s not even 6 mos. (Her mother said “That’s just how the different rites are!”)

I can understand comparing the two as I’m in the process of doing so, but not to see which is superior or inferior, more as a study of how Catholicism is so rich in its rites, rituals, and practices. I don’t want to start a “hand holding during the Our Father” debate (I’m not for hand holding), I’d be afraid to be in the orans position during the Our Father because I wouldn’t want the people next grabbing and holding my hand. 😛

Both rites are beautiful and wonderful and I love having “access” to them. :love:
 
thunderballs75 said:
That’s what I was thinking. What I don’t understand then, is why the lay people in the congregation are discouraged from using the Orans posture during the Our Father in the Latin Church. Hmm…
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Interesting. I recall my (Latin Rite, Ordinary Form) Pastor saying once, almost in passing, during a homily that the Orans Position is actually the correct position for the congregation during the Our Father. I’ve also noticed many in my parish also use the Orans Position (we aren’t that “touchy-feely” in my Parish, so only about half the congragation holds hands, while the others are split between Orans, simply folding their hands and bowing their heads, or gripping the back of the pew in front of them).
 
JaMc said:
Interesting. I recall my (Latin Rite, Ordinary Form) Pastor saying once, almost in passing, during a homily that the Orans Position is actually the correct position for the congregation during the Our Father. I’ve also noticed many in my parish also use the Orans Position (we aren’t that “touchy-feely” in my Parish, so only about half the congragation holds hands, while the others are split between Orans, simply folding their hands and bowing their heads, or gripping the back of the pew in front of them).
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Well, maybe they are only discouraged in theory. Of course, the way priests are now-adays, who knows?

ewtn.com/expert/answers/orans_posture.htm
 
thunderballs75 said:
That’s what I was thinking. What I don’t understand then, is why the lay people in the congregation are discouraged from using the Orans posture during the Our Father in the Latin Church. Hmm…

Maybe it’s just one of those manners of discipline which were changed in the west? I know in the eastern Churches there is no kneeling during the Divine Liturgy, yet it takes place quite a bit at a Latin Church Mass.
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Orans posture may never have been adopted in the West, at least by the laity.

My gut tells me that the modern custom of holding hands during the Pater started when people began using the orans posture and simply took the next step.
 
bpbasilphx said:
My gut tells me that the modern custom of holding hands during the Pater started when people began using the orans posture and simply took the next step.
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Nah, they were holding hands when singing Kumbaya and just used it for the Our Father, too.

I’m serious. My family started holding hands for grace before meals in the 70s as well.
 
“Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant. It is a grave abuse for any member of the non-ordained faithful to “quasi-preside” at the Mass while leaving only that minimal participation to the priest which is necessary to secure validity [ICP, Practical Provisions 6~2] The ICP is the reference. It’s from the Vatican.” ‘Mass Confusion’ by James Akin pg 202
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Among the laity this practice began with the charismatic renewal. Used in private prayer it has worked its way into the Liturgy. It is a legitimate gesture to use when praying, as history shows, however, it is a private gesture when used in the Mass and in some cases conflicts with the system of signs which the rubrics are intended to protect. The Mass is not a private or merely human ceremony. The symbology of the actions, including such gestures, is definite and precise, and reflects the sacramental character of the Church’s prayer. As the Holy See has recently pointed out, confusion has entered the Church about the hierarchical nature of her worship, and this gesture certainly contributes to that confusion when it conflicts with the ordered sign language of the Mass.
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Lets take each case.
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Our Father. The intention for lay people using the Orans position at this time is, I suppose, that we pray Our Father, and the unity of people and priest together is expressed by this common gesture of prayer. Although this gesture is not called for in the rubrics, it does at least seem, on the surface, to not be in conflict with the sacramental sign system at the point when we pray Our Father. I say on the surface, however, since while lay people are doing this the deacon, whose postures are governed by the rubrics, may not do it. So, we have the awkward disunity created by the priest making an appropriate liturgical gesture in accordance with the rubrics, the deacon not making the same gesture in accordance with the rubrics, some laity making the same gesture as the priest not in accordance with the rubrics, and other laity not making the gesture (for various reasons, including knowing it is not part of their liturgical role). In the end, the desire of the Church for liturgical unity is defeated.
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After Our Father. This liturgical disunity continues after the Our Father when some, though not all, who assumed the Orans position during the Our Father continue it through the balance of the prayers, until after “For thine is the kingdom etc.” The rubrics provide that priest-concelebrants lower their extended hands, so that the main celebrant alone continues praying with hands extended, since he represents all, including his brother priests. So, we have the very anomalous situation that no matter how many clergy are present only one of them is praying with hands extended, accompanied by numbers of the laity. -Colin B. Donovan, EWTN
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bpbasilphx said:
I’ve never been to a single mass where Kumbaya was ever sung.
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For someone who nitpicks about the term “Byzantine Liturgy” not being used by Roman Catholics, the least you could as an Orthodox do is capitalize “Mass.”
 
thunderballs75 said:
LOL

Also, you’re not supposed to hold hands while you say grace??? My family does this (of course, they were never Catholic). Why?
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No, I’m just saying that nothing happens in a vacuum. For some reason holding hands to pray (grace, the Our Father, youth group) became the vogue in the seventies.

So, it isn’t just that holding hands during the Our Father sprang out of nowhere - it was being done in a lot of places. My dad still starts to hold hands during grace when he visits, but my family does not normally, so we indulge him…

If your family holds hands during grace that’s absolutely fine!
 
…ever wonder why christians can’t just go to church and remember that it’s all about God! It’s not about drawing attention to ourselves, or paying attention to your neighbor’s, let’s say…“unique” form of worship.

…i say, mind your own…(worship practices), quit trying to draw attention to yourselves or others and lean back and bask in the Glory of what is literally Jesus touching down on the alter from heaven.

…IMHO of course:thumbsup:
 
Unfortunately this laxity can lead to liturgical abuses as we’ve seen. Your intentions are good, but the result isn’t always best. God bless you. 😉
 
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