Orans position

[babochka]

The Americans, very memorably, needed the intervention of the Holy See a few years ago on the issue of rubrics because some Americans were overaggressive concerning them, trying to compel behaviour that was completely beyond the function of rubrics. At the time, I found it utterly remarkable that such could even happen…but I confess it is clearer to me, after time spent on this forum.
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Father, if you think this is bad, try searching for “Eastern Catholics” or “Orthodox” and “pews”.

 

[otjm]

IMO, the assumption of the orans position is a result of the blurring of the lines between clergy and laity over the past several decades.

Well, actually, no, it goes back farther than that, and it goes back to the beginnings of the Catholic Charismatic Movement in the 1960’s (and a movement praised by John Paul 2). And the gesture itself goes back before the time of Christ: “Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.” cf Psalm 141.

Rightly, wrongly, or indifferently, the gesture (as well as holding hands during the Our Father, the alternate gesture which continues of be revisited periodically) is up to the individual; Canon lawyers not to the contrary. Canon law and liturgical laws and norms are two different areas of church law. with no disparagement meant to the Canon lawyer providing his personal opinion on the matter.

The General Instructions of the Roman Missal (GIRM for short) only says that the congregation is to stand during the Our Father. It does not say anything whatsoever as to what one is to do with one’s hands, so it is ultimately up to the individual to decide whether to put one’s hands together, fingers out or interlaced; hold one’s neighbor’s hand, or hold them in the orans posture. This matter is not exactly an unknown issue in Rome, as the fussing started not long after the gesture made its way around; and I have lost count of how many revisions to the GIRM have been made since then - I think we are at three now if not more.

And Rome has remained silent on the matter for each new edition. Rome obviously has had the opportunity not once, not twice, but more, to make any necessary correction and they have consistently ignored the matter; it thus is of far greater angst to individuals, who keep offering opinions on the matter, than it is to Rome.

 

[otjm]

I took his advice on this matter just as well as I would take anyone else’s post. If he is correct, then he is correct. Just like anyone else who took the time out of their busy day to post a message to assist me. If he is misguided then he would be misguided just like anyone else. We are all human. I received many opinions through these messages and I am grateful each and every one of them. The best thing for me to do now is to approach my priest and talk with him. I am sure that the Father will also be educated in the faith and a little face to face would work wonders to help me iron this out. Sooooooooo, I will just ask that this thread be closed and work things out Sunday after Mass.

I realize that you are new to the forum and are unaware of Don Ruggero’s background, but I find it a bit amusing that you would put the advise and opinion of your local pastor, who only studied liturgical law, above that of a professor of liturgy, who likely has taught liturgical law for more years than the age of some posters.

 

[otjm]

Excuse me, Father, but even certain Bishops have written to the faithful in their Diocese stating that since “[n]o gesture is prescribed for the lay faithful” during the Our Father, then it is only sensible that “the extending or holding of hands by the faithful should not be performed.”

I don’t know if this is an example of the overagression you mentioned later in this post, but I would consider this a fairly reliable piece of evidence that your opinion is one that is not shared by all of those who have authority in the Church.

As an aside, I have noted that in a number of places in the liturgy, the priest will specifically place his palms together, fingers pointing out or down; I can only assume that there is a specific liturgical direction to do so.

Thus, arguably, such a gesture is one for the celebrant; and just as arguably, since it is a priestly gesture, I would hope that same bishop would include a prohibition of the laity using the same.

Which presumably will leave the laity with their hands held down by their sides.

 

[tawny]

Technically we’re not supposed to imitate the gestures and hand positions used by the priest. However, I do believe that horse is out of the barn, out of the corral, and had done left the state.

Agree.

 

[Bookcat]

1. An ancient and venerable way to pray.
2. It is described though at that place in the liturgy as the position of the Priest.
3. As noted by another - the horse has done left the barn on this one.It is frequent.
4. As noted by another there is no described position for the laity at that point. And Rome did not note anything precisely about the laity and this position in the newest GIRM. Though it is noted how the Priest is to hold his hands then.
5. I will note though as I recall the* Deacon *- is noted to have his hands folded during the Lords Prayer in the Liturgy. So even the Deacon is not to stand in the orans at Mass during the Lords Prayer.

Do I use the Orans position during the Lords Prayer at Mass?

No.

Do I use the Orans position (along with other ways) in prayer at home?

Yes certainly.

 

[goout]

I realize that you are new to the forum and are unaware of Don Ruggero’s background, but I find it a bit amusing that you would put the advise and opinion of your local pastor, who only studied liturgical law, above that of a professor of liturgy, who likely has taught liturgical law for more years than the age of some posters.

The reality is, the internet is the great leveler of authoritative opinion, for better or worse. We have been journeying toward a homogenized hyper-egalitarian culture for a couple of centuries, and now we pretty much have it with universal expression.

In a culture like this, mutual respect is key. One person’s nonsense is another’s path to piety and holiness. It seems like every age that comes along believes it has attained the enlightened perspective. We have a process of developing and changing, going back to reclaim, and developing some more. We see this in the US in the younger priests, many of whom have a fuller appreciation of our family history and culture than those who taught us the 70s and 80s, who almost disowned the culture that gave birth to them.

I also try to keep in mind that we are typing messages on a keyboard without benefit of face to face contact. You don’t know if I’m a 6’2 rocket scientist or 5’2 ditchdigger. My claimed credentials are not very important on a forum.

 

[otjm]

The reality is, the internet is the great leveler of authoritative opinion, for better or worse. We have been journeying toward a homogenized hyper-egalitarian culture for a couple of centuries, and now we pretty much have it with universal expression.

In a culture like this, mutual respect is key. One person’s nonsense is another’s path to piety and holiness. It seems like every age that comes along believes it has attained the enlightened perspective. We have a process of developing and changing, going back to reclaim, and developing some more. We see this in the US in the younger priests, many of whom have a fuller appreciation of our family history and culture than those who taught us the 70s and 80s, who almost disowned the culture that gave birth to them.

I also try to keep in mind that we are typing messages on a keyboard without benefit of face to face contact. You don’t know if I’m a 6’2 rocket scientist or 5’2 ditchdigger. My claimed credentials are not very important on a forum.

My comment was directed to YiSan; if I misdirected it to you, my apologies.

As I noted in one of my posts, the issues of orans and hand holding come up on a fairly regular basis. It is my observation that the tone and tenor of the comments have calmed down over the years; at one point the discussion long ago really reached a crescendo, with some really angry people insisting that it was seriously wrong (those individuals seem to have moved on to other discussion groups). There are clearly some who are bothered to a great degree. I do not fault them in the least; but the issue resides with Rome, and Rome has consistently decided to not regulate what one is to do or not do with one’s hands during the Our Father, all other opinions to the contrary.

In the past, there have been comments which, to put it politely, bespoke of a very uncharitable attitude towards the person next to them in the pew, such as comments indicating blowing snot into one’s hands when the next person reached out.

Archbishop Chaput, while he was in Colorado, finally wrote a lengthy public letter (as he obviously was being hammered by demands for a means of stopping all of this hand holding). After a lengthy explanation that Rome made no law concerning the matter, he ended by saying that those who wanted to hold hands, and those who wanted to not do so, both needed to react to the person next to them in charity.

It is a point that seems too easily lost sight of.

 

[goout]

My comment was directed to YiSan; if I misdirected it to you, my apologies.

I was commenting on the chastisement the one poster was receiving. Maybe deservedly so, I dunno. There are constant misunderstandings in internet blogging that would never happen in face to face conversation. Internet blogging is impersonal by nature.
It seems to me the poster that was being criticised for bad faith towards a priest who has credentials he cannot know about and cannot see face to face.
Father likewise used the word “nonsensical” in regard to something that has meaning to someone, like the OP for instance. Misunderstandings abound.

Archbishop Chaput while he was in Colorado, finally wrote a lengthy public letter (as he obviously was being hammered by demands for a means of stopping all of this hand holding). After a lengthy explanation that Rome made no law concerning the matter, he ended by saying that those who wanted to hold hands, and those who wanted to not do so, both needed to react to the person next to them in charity.

It is a point that seems too easily lost sight of.

 

[MissBorgia]

Me too…

After doing some reading concerning it, I stopped doing so. clasp my hands together now.

 

[felsguy]

1. I will note though as I recall the* Deacon *- is noted to have his hands folded during the Lords Prayer in the Liturgy.

Based on a casual conversation with one of the deacons at our parish, I believe this is fact.

So even the Deacon is not to stand in the orans at Mass during the Lords Prayer.

However, I believe that adding the word “even” to this makes it an opinion and not a fact.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Father likewise used the word “nonsensical” in regard to something that has meaning to someone, like the OP for instance.

I have not used the word nonsensical in this thread. I have used it regarding a drawing in a completely different thread and in a completely different sub-forum which offers a depiction that does not make any theological or liturgical sense at all. That is quite distinct and unrelated to this thread, which concerns the use of the orans gesture by laity who are part of the liturgical assembly.

 

[goout]

I have not used the word nonsensical in this thread. I have used it regarding a drawing in a completely different thread and in a completely different sub-forum which offers a depiction that does not make any theological or liturgical sense at all. That is quite distinct and unrelated to this thread, which concerns the use of the orans gesture by laity who are part of the liturgical assembly.

My sincere apologies for conflating the threads and causing you distress.