Oran's Posture - Priest Only!?

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That happened to me once. People on either side of me tried to grab my hands but I wouldn’t allow it. It didn’t ruin the Mass for me and the others in the pew adjusted.
 
FYI, GIRM = General Instruction of the Roman Missal.

Note the word, “General,” not absolute.

The norms are set by the conference of Bishops, not Church Militant.

Hope this helps

Jim
 
Mark121359 said:
I’m sure you will correct me if I’m wrong, but I’ve always thought that the Orans posture popularity is due in large part to the Charismatic Renewal.
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Yes, that’s where it comes from.

It also comes from a sense of false-anachronism, the idea of bringing back something from the ancient past, but taking it out of context. It is an attempt to “restore” something that was never really done in the first place.

It wasn’t the prayer position of the early Church either (despite the repeated empty claim that it was). In the catacombs it was only used to depict the faithful in heaven.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
FYI, GIRM = General Instruction of the Roman Missal.

Note the word, “General,” not absolute.

The norms are set by the conference of Bishops, not Church Militant.

Hope this helps

Jim
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No, that is NOT what the word “general” means. It is equivocation to imply that the GIRM is just general suggestions to be determined on the local level.

It certainly does mean that the norms of the GIRM must be followed.

The word “general” means that it applies to most Masses, but not to every situation. There are other rites (like Rite of Baptism or Rite of Confirmation, etc) that are not addressed in the GIRM but are instead found in other liturgical laws.

The bishop’s conference does not write the GIRM nor does it make norms. Only the Holy See does that. The conferences can propose changes, but those changes still require approval.
 
Essentially the same thing I posted.

General doesn’t mean absolute as there are variances approved by Rome and the local Bishops.

Even monastic orders follow the rubrics according to their order, which is approved by their Provincial in Rome and by the Vatican.

Over the years I’ve seen members on CAF get bent out of shape because they attended a Mass at a Benedictine Monastery, and there were some differences from the GIRM.

The bottom line is, follow the directives of your local Bishop.

Jim
 
From the GIRM at the USCCB
  1. It is for the Conferences of Bishops to formulate the adaptations indicated in this General Instruction and in the Order of Mass and, once their decisions have been accorded the recognitio of the Apostolic See, to introduce them into the Missal itself. They are such as these:
• the gestures and bodily posture of the faithful (cf. no. 43);

• the gestures of veneration toward the altar and the Book of the Gospels (cf. no. 273);

• the texts of the chants at the Entrance, at the Presentation of the Gifts, and at Communion (cf. nos. 48, 74, 87);

• the readings from Sacred Scripture to be used in special circumstances (cf. no. 362);

• the form of the gesture of peace (cf. no. 82);

• the manner of receiving Holy Communion (cf. nos. 160, 283);

• the materials for the altar and sacred furnishings, especially the sacred vessels, and also the materials, form, and color of the liturgical vestments (cf. nos. 301, 326, 329, 339, 342-346).

It shall be permissible for Directories or pastoral Instructions that the Conferences of Bishops judge useful to be included, with the prior recognitio of the Apostolic See, in the Roman Missal at an appropriate place.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
From the GIRM at the USCCB
  1. It is for the Conferences of Bishops to formulate the adaptations indicated in this General Instruction and in the Order of Mass and, once their decisions have been accorded the recognitio of the Apostolic See, to introduce them into the Missal itself. They are such as these:
• the gestures and bodily posture of the faithful (cf. no. 43);

• the gestures of veneration toward the altar and the Book of the Gospels (cf. no. 273);

• the texts of the chants at the Entrance, at the Presentation of the Gifts, and at Communion (cf. nos. 48, 74, 87);

• the readings from Sacred Scripture to be used in special circumstances (cf. no. 362);

• the form of the gesture of peace (cf. no. 82);

• the manner of receiving Holy Communion (cf. nos. 160, 283);

• the materials for the altar and sacred furnishings, especially the sacred vessels, and also the materials, form, and color of the liturgical vestments (cf. nos. 301, 326, 329, 339, 342-346).

It shall be permissible for Directories or pastoral Instructions that the Conferences of Bishops judge useful to be included, with the prior recognitio of the Apostolic See, in the Roman Missal at an appropriate place.
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once their decisions have been accorded the recognitio of the Apostolic See,

and

with the prior recognitio of the Apostolic See,

The role of the local bishop is to ensure that the GIRM is being followed. It’s not within the competence of the local bishop to approve changes without that recognition of the Apostolic See.
 
As I said, but there will be small variances across the Catholic World, which is my point.

If the GIRM was the absolute instruction, there would be no need for each Conference of Bishops to set norms which vary in small ways.

There was a time when Canadian Catholics stood during the consecration while Catholics in the USA knelt.

I’m not sure this is the same today.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
As I said, but there will be small variances across the Catholic World, which is my point.

If the GIRM was the absolute instruction, there would be no need for each Conference of Bishops to set norms which vary in small ways.

There was a time when Canadian Catholics stood during the consecration while Catholics in the USA knelt.

I’m not sure this is the same today.

Jim
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The GIRM is the absolute instruction.

Bishops conferences make adjustments to the GIRM for their own territory, provided those adjustments (adaptations) are approved by Rome.

As I tried to say earlier, it is NOT the case that the word “general” means it can be changed (that’s the point you’re wrongly trying to assert). The word “general” means that it addresses most Masses, but does not include the rubrics for special occasions such as baptism, confirmation or ordination, etc.
 
Bishops conferences make adjustments to the GIRM for their own territory, provided those adjustments (adaptations) are approved by Rome.
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Correct, as I posted, which to me means not “Absolute,” but variances set by the Conference of Bishops which are approved by Rome.

Jim
 
I have to say thanks to FrDavid96 for his contributions here on this thread, and CAF in general. I’m constantly learning something new. Again, thanks!
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Bishops conferences make adjustments to the GIRM for their own territory, provided those adjustments (adaptations) are approved by Rome.
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Variation which are part of the GIRM, not apart from it.

You insist that the variations are separate from the GIRM. They are not. They are incorporated into the GIRM for each country.

General does not mean what you keep insisting it means.
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I couldn’t agree more. We are blessed to have a priest(s) post here given what I believe is the lack of respect given to them. Not only that is APPEARS to be some believe they are more knowledgeable than a priest who has studied for years. It is my pet peeve.
 
Let’s thank Don Ruggero for this participation and his expertise. He brings a lot to these threads.

I know we sometimes see things differently (like this thread) and that’s a good thing because people need to understand that priests can indeed sometimes disagree about non-essentials while always agreeing on what is essential. He also often reminds us that there is a whole world out there beyond the U.S.

We have some good deacons posting here as well.

We used to have more priests (I can recall a few) but lately, they just aren’t posting very much. So if I’m omitting any others it’s only because I don’t see them posting lately (maybe they’re posting in threads I don’t read.)
 
Yes, I was thinking also of Don Ruggero but not everyone knows he is a priest. I think most of us do now!~ Thank you both for your posts.
 
Bowing of the head during the Mass per the GIRM is something else I have been “questioned” about on a regular basis. This is something ALL Catholics should be aware of and do during the Mass:

GIRM 275. A bow signifies reverence and honor shown to the persons themselves or to the signs that represent them. There are two kinds of bows: a bow of the head and a bow of the body.
  • A bow of the head is made when the three Divine Persons are named together and at the names of Jesus, of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and of the Saint in whose honor Mass is being celebrated.
  • A bow of the body, that is to say a profound bow, is made to the altar; during the prayers Munda cor meum (Almighty God, cleanse my heart) and In spiritu humilitatis (Lord God, we ask you to receive); in the Creed at the words Et incarnatus est (by the power of the Holy Spirit . . . and became man); in the Roman Canon at the words Supplices te rogamus (Almighty God, we pray that your angel). The same kind of bow is made by the deacon when he asks for a blessing before the proclamation of the Gospel. In addition, the priest bows slightly as he speaks the words of the Lord at the consecration.
 
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I think we’re talking past each other.

Variations are part of the GIRM because the GIRM specifies that the Conference of Bishops set the adaptations as approved by Rome.

This is why American Catholics going to Mass in Canada, will see some small differences.

In fact at one time Catholics in Canada stood during the offertory, while Americans kneel.
Not sure if this has changed, but at one time it was a difference.

If General, actually meant absolute, they would not have added the word General in the first place and every Catholic Church would be following the GIRM without variation,

But as this post in this thread showed, Oran’s Posture or holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer has not be prohibited by the Bishops with the instruction that Catholics must only do what is specified in the GIRM, nothing more.

Jim
 
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