Oran's Posture - Priest Only!?

[FrDavid96]

No, you have things spun around.

The bishops and not you make the decisions and bear the responsibility.

It’s clear you feel you know more than the Catholic Church and that’s on you.

Either you are right and the Catholic Church is wrong

or

The Catholic Church is right and you are wrong.

I’ve posted here the position of the Catholic Church.

Whether you like it or not; whether you accept it or not, this is the teaching and position of the Church

SC 22
Regulation of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, that is, on the Apostolic See and, as laws may determine, on the bishop.
In virtue of power conceded by the law, the regulation of the liturgy within certain defined limits belongs also to various kinds of competent territorial bodies of bishops legitimately established.
Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority.

You, on the other hand, have nothing but your own misguided opinion to support your claim that you know better than the Catholic Church.

So prove where the Church agrees with you. Show us.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’ve been using Oran’s posture my whole life. What other options do we have if we aren’t supposed to use it?

At some parishes, people all hold hands. This can be awkward as some attendees do not feel comfortable holding hands with strangers while praying and do not like their hand being grabbed.

Before either Orans or hand-holding, people just folded their hands and prayed the Our Father. This is what I still do. The folded hands signify that I do not wish to hold hands if I’m at a hand-holding parish.

As mentioned early in the thread, I had been saying Our Father with folded hands my entire life until this Orans business came in. It is a little odd to learn a new posture after several decades of using the old.

 

[FrDavid96]

FrDavid96:

We have a different perspective precisely because we have a different experience.

We are not all Europeans, remember.

I do not need you reminding me of something that I know very well…in this or in any other matter. We in Europe know quite well that the orans posture is perfectly acceptable for the laity to employ. Period.

Let me add that I have spent, across the years, more than an nsignificant time in the United States, teaching and giving lectures. The use of the orans posture there is as it should be for the venerable prayer gesture that it is. Period.

You, Father, are making this very tedious, by your own choice.

I have quoted Archbishop Charles Chaput, then of Denver and now of Philadlephia…he demonstrates a far greater competence in liturgy than you have.

The priest stands with his arms outstretched as the prayer begins. The assembly should also stand. There are no options for gestures listed in the General Instruction for this part of the Mass. For many persons, folding their hands during the “Our Father” is the best way to express their prayer. For others, they may hold their hands outstretched. Still others hold hands.

None of these gestures is mandated or forbidden by the Church. So our guiding principles should be respect for the dignity of the Mass, and respect for the freedom of our fellow worshipers.

Your National Conference Bishops has been quoted.

Some people hold hands during the Lord’s Prayer, while others hold their hands out like the priest. Is there a prescribed posture for the Our Father?

No position is prescribed in the Roman Missal for an assembly gesture during the Lord’s Prayer.

If you are unable to submit yourself to the bishops of your own country, that is an issue for you to deal with.

For that reason, the criteria of “how does the Church regulate individual posture?” is a question that simply does not apply. It is not individual posture; not here, not now. It was in the past, but it has moved far beyond that.

Your opinions about the Charismatic Renewal and how you view all of these matters is really quite meaningless…and, as far as I am concerned, is becoming even more meaningless with each successive post.

I am quite comfortable with my position, thank you.

And I will continue to defend it.

I will continue to believe the authentic teaching of Vatican II that no one, not even a sacerdos, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

A year or two ago a recurring topic on this forum was receiving on the tongue/in the hand and standing/kneeling. Could that be a similar manifestation of the same fixation? Everyone has to do it the same way. They can’t both be right! If one of them is right, the other one must be wrong …

What one encounters with a certain sort of American – when it comes to the observance of rules in matters that are of the most minor of importance – borders on being a fetish.

One would have hoped such people would have learned from Cardinal Arinze’s intervention. Clearly, though, such people are incapable of profiting from it…in the way that their maturer counterparts had hoped might be the case.

 

[JamalChristophr]

At some parishes, people all hold hands. This can be awkward as some attendees do not feel comfortable holding hands with strangers while praying and do not like their hand being grabbed.

If I was at this parish, one person would not be holding hands. Most people won’t dig into your pockets. They must first break my arms. I don’t feel bad about not holding hands. I am friendly about it, I think. I simply keep my focus on the sanctuary and am friendly at the sign of peace.

 

[babochka]

I find it funny that there are people who bring in their own postures to the mass when they’re not instructed to. Yet those very same people abstain from doing the prayer postures they’re explicitly instructed to do. For example, the people who tend to pray with the Orans posture, or who hold hands during the Our Father, almost never do the profound bow whenever the Lord’s or Our Lady’s names are mentioned.

I find it interesting that you used this particular example, given that it is not specified in the GIRM that these are to be done. No matter how widespread or traditional this practice may be, it remains a pious custom. A better example might be making a profound bow during the creed or before Communion, which have been specified.

Comparing the Byzantine Rite to the Latin Rite is a bit like comparing apples and oranges since we don’t seem to place the same high value on uniformity, but here’s an example that seems to be a parallel, nonetheless. It is a common practice for the people, during processions around the church and during the incensing of the church, to turn their bodies a full 360 degrees in order to follow the priest around the church. In addition, it is customary to bow and make the sign of the cross as priests passes. This is done in many parishes, but not all. Since it is not a recent custom, I don’t know how or why it originated. It is just done. It is neither mandated nor forbidden. Nobody really cares if an individual does it or does not do it. If a person comes from a parish where it is not done to a parish in which it is done, that person generally conforms to the practice of the new parish. Of course, nobody really cares if he does it or not. It is not a corporate gesture, it is a bunch of individuals making the same gesture.

 

[Spyridon]

If it’s such an inconsequential issue, then what’s with the smug and condescending tone towards a fellow brother Priest?

Quite frankly, whether or not your position is right and his is not quite right (which it appears is the case from your quotes from our ecclesial authorities), the way you spoke to him was inappropriate. Apologies are in order, IMO.

 

[JamalChristophr]

Seems like we are getting a little too…what’s the word, “invested”? in this thread, I hope that charity is not going south, ever so slightly that it may be.

 

[Hereiam]

Celebrate getting people TO the Mass and worry about form over function later!

 

[Duesenberg]

I find it interesting that you used this particular example, given that it is not specified in the GIRM that these are to be done. No matter how widespread or traditional this practice may be, it remains a pious custom. A better example might be making a profound bow during the creed or before Communion, which have been specified.

That is quite true, and that fact seems to really bother some people.

Comparing the Byzantine Rite to the Latin Rite is a bit like comparing apples and oranges since we don’t seem to place the same high value on uniformity, but here’s an example that seems to be a parallel, nonetheless. It is a common practice for the people, during processions around the church and during the incensing of the church, to turn their bodies a full 360 degrees in order to follow the priest around the church. In addition, it is customary to bow and make the sign of the cross as priests passes. This is done in many parishes, but not all. Since it is not a recent custom, I don’t know how or why it originated. It is just done. It is neither mandated nor forbidden. Nobody really cares if an individual does it or does not do it. If a person comes from a parish where it is not done to a parish in which it is done, that person generally conforms to the practice of the new parish. Of course, nobody really cares if he does it or not. It is not a corporate gesture, it is a bunch of individuals making the same gesture.

The West has always been far more scholastic, far more linear-thinking than the East. String enough syllogisms together and anything can be proven or at least explained. The result in the West is often an either/or mindset while the East is more of a both/and mindset. I think that perhaps that limitation sometimes forms rather fundamentalist mindsets in some who otherwise lack a wider breadth of intellectual and spiritual formation.

 

[Duesenberg]

If it’s such an inconsequential issue, then what’s with the smug and condescending tone towards a fellow brother Priest?

Quite frankly, whether or not your position is right and his is not quite right (which it appears is the case from your quotes from our ecclesial authorities), the way you spoke to him was inappropriate. Apologies are in order, IMO.

I very much agree – and it wouldn’t matter who was being addressed – the laity or clergy.

 

[on_the_hill]

Wow. What a debate.

After reading most of it, I’m still not sure of the answer.

There are a fair number of people in our parish who use it after the priest says, “Peace be with you.” They raise up their orans posture while they respond.

Personally, It’s not a matter of whether it’s permitted or not. I won’t do it because it seems like a Protestant thing to do. I’m really not one to discriminate in any way–but a man’s got to hold fast to at least a few things!

 

[Duesenberg]

it seems like a Protestant thing to do.

How so? Something our priestly celebrants are required to do seems “Protestant?”

 

[Edward_H]

This stems from the misguided idea of people who want to “clericalize the lay”.

 

[on_the_hill]

How so? Something our priestly celebrants are required to do seems “Protestant?”

Protestant with respect to the kind of thing you see masses . . . I mean, crowds of congregants holding their arms up in the air when they feel the Spirit.

 

[BartholomewB]

One would have hoped such people would have learned from Cardinal Arinze’s intervention. Clearly, though, such people are incapable of profiting from it…in the way that their maturer counterparts had hoped might be the case.

I don’t think there was much willingness, among the upper echelons of the USCCB, to give Arinze a fair hearing, let alone learn from him. The Liturgy Committee (that may not be the exact title) was headed at the time, as I recall, by Donald Trautman, mockingly nicknamed Trautperson for obvious reasons.

 

[pnewton]

I like your post for the 'jumping the shark" reference. Practically speaking, this is an Philippians 2 situation, which in my opinion, is a chapter that if lived would solve almost every argument in the Liturgy Subforum.

Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus…

 

[FrDavid96]

You don’t have the authority, nor do your interpretations of Church documents. The authority rests rests with the bishops.

Yet you seem to think that you have it.

The role of the bishops is to safeguard the liturgy; to implement the liturgical norms of the Church to ensure they are faithfully followed. The Church decides the limits of the bishop’s competence–a point on which you clearly disagree.

A bishop has only that authority to make changes to the Liturgy which have been expressly granted to him.

I can give examples of this, such as the posture after Communion. A bishop has the authority to decide such things.

The bishop’s authority is limited. He cannot add, remove or change anything in the Liturgy unless the Holy See has granted him that authority.

 

[exnihilo]

Hold your hands together with the fingers interlocked or place them with the palms together. I do both.

 

[Duesenberg]

I’m leaving for Mass in a few minutes. I’m going to:

• Wear my black zucchetto.
• Wear khaki Bermuda shorts (thanks, California.)
• Give this “oran’s posture” a try.
• Put my right hand over my heart and extend my left hand (palm up) towards the altar at both consecrations.
• Audibly say “my Lord and my God” at both elevations.
• Hold both my thumbs and forefingers together like priests often used to.
• Cross myself from right to left, slanting down.
• Cross myself using my hand cross.
• Discreetly chew gum. Heck, I do that anyway.
• Discreetly take a few sips from my water bottle. I already do that too.
• Cross the Gospel reading in my missalette before I cross my forehead/lips/heart.

I want to see if anyone around me spontaneously combusts, vaporizes or is otherwise impacted by my actions.