Orans posture prohibited during Lord's Prayer

[JimR-OCDS]

We’re not talking about being in an elevator with a group of strangers, but at Mass

Not sure about the staunch opposition.

Need to move on

Jim

 

[tafan2]

I have stated multiple time, if people want to hold hands at mass, I have no problem with it. But they should not expect others to join in. And I am opposed to your idea that we are some how morally obligated to join in.

 

[prayerrider]

Of course no one is obligated. I don’t hold hands in Mass, I don’t shake hands either. If others want to do one or both, good for them. If they want to judge me because I don’t join in, who cares?
I feel welcome by Jesus Christ. That’s plenty of welcome for me.

 

[PetraG]

Heaven forbid we celebrate Mass with a community of friends instead of a group of strangers.

There are no strangers in the Universal Church, only people we haven’t met yet.

If you have such a problem that holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer with the person reaching out to you, that you decided to not attend Mass, then you’ve got a problem in your spiritual formation.

Ask yourself, would Jesus refuse ?

Jim

Well, there is a chance He might say, “Friend, who appointed me as your judge and arbitrator?”

What’s in the heart is the issue.

If a kind person reaches out to hold your hand in prayer, how can you refuse and not insult that person ?

I just don’t get it

You just nicely indicate, “I can see your offer is kindly meant, but no thank you.” There is occasionally someone who insists, but honestly this isn’t something most people get that cranked up about.

And wrangling over this issue distracts and divides Christians from much bigger issues.

So don’t wrangle! No problem!

Mass isn’t an individual form of worship, but communal

Salvation as never individualistic, but socialistic, per Pope Benedict XVI.

OK, but nobody ever tried to grab Pope Benedict’s hand during the Our Father, true?
If the clergy do not see a reason to do this, why would anyone else?
There is nothing wrong with offering, at least I haven’t seen any posture proscribed in the rubrics, but it is necessary to respect those who don’t care to hold hands. It isn’t in the rubrics. They don’t have to. Mutual respect and refraining from judging anyone one way or the other is generous enough.

I’ve seen people reach over and grab another person’s hand. Had it happen to me once, even though my hands were already folded together.

This beyond the pale. I wouldn’t get in an arm-wrestling match over it, but it is not kosher to force someone else into a particular posture that IS in the rubrics, let alone one that is not.

You’re misunderstanding what I wrote.

When a hand is offered to me, I will not reject it

Hope this helps

I don’t, either, but I don’t think it a cause for insult when someone does. That’s not to say someone won’t take offense or decide to get their feelings hurt, but they really don’t have a leg to stand on.

Read the entire Encyclical, it explains more about salvation being a social reality rather than just an event for the individual

Again, if Pope Benedict had wanted hand-holding during the Our Father to be considered de rigueur, he could have put it in the rubrics. He did not. There is a reason for that.

 

[prayerrider]

This beyond the pale. I wouldn’t get in an arm-wrestling match over it, but it is not kosher to force someone else into a particular posture that IS in the rubrics, let alone one that is not.

Yes. Grabbing at someone’s hand without asking is rather aggressive. Outside of Mass, that would be rather risky. So why would someone thinks it’s okay during Mass?

 

[RobertAdams]

For those of us who fall into the “I prefer not to be touched, or to make dramatic gestures in public” camp, it probably feels way worse to us when you guys start trying to hold our hands or start doing the orans gestures than it would feel to you guys to just not do that stuff. So that should count for something.

On the other hand, alot of times there’s just more of you guys around, so that should probably count for something too. Different strokes for different folks though, not a big deal. I can handle it if you want to make me hold hands and look at your praying stance

 

[PetraG]

Yes. Grabbing at someone’s hand without asking is rather aggressive. Outside of Mass, that would be rather risky. So why would someone thinks it’s okay during Mass?

Well, it is pretty rare. Aggressive hand-grabbers aren’t typical. Most of the time, people offer their hand and if it isn’t accepted they just pray palms up with that hand.

 

[tafan2]

Yes, this is by far the way it commonly happens. I have rarely had any negative feedback, or even perceived any negative feedback, when I politely decline.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Well, it is pretty rare. Aggressive hand-grabbers aren’t typical. Most of the time, people offer their hand and if it isn’t accepted they just pray palms up with that hand.

Yes, true. Unless I have been at a parish where everyone is holding hands, I have never experienced any stranger asking to hold hands. Most people I think are pretty respectful in that regard.

 

[prayerrider]

I immediately close my eyes after rising. Leave the kneeler down too. I don’t know why folks feel like they have to put them up, when they’re going to put them right back down again. Makes a racket and wears them out faster.

 

[tafan2]

Some pews are designed in such a way that its tough to stand with the kneelers down, but in general I agree with you.
When I am in a parish that I know is very “hand-holding happy”, I tend to hold my hands behind my back when I stand up for the Our Father, this seems to be a effective signal as to my preference to not hold hands.

 

[prayerrider]

Many today seem so uneasy with silence and stillness in worship. Even sacred prayer must be accompanied by extraneous movement or be sung to some rollicking, banal melody.

However, “Gregorian chant is not contrary to silence. It has issued from it and leads to it. I would even say that it is as though woven from silence.”
(Robert Cardinal Sarah)

 

[PetraG]

I immediately close my eyes after rising. Leave the kneeler down too. I don’t know why folks feel like they have to put them up, when they’re going to put them right back down again. Makes a racket and wears them out faster.

I don’t care if they’re up or down. If anything, I don’t like having one put down onto my foot, so I tend to leave them up. My husband finds they are distracting when he’s standing because they get in the way of the front of his legs or his feet (or something). Just put together differently, I guess.

 

[ProVobis]

Or you can hold a missallete and/or a handkerchief in your hands.

 

[prayerrider]

My Missal is thick and heavy and takes both hands to hold.

 

[stpurl]

Depends on the parish. I have arthritis and neuropathy in my hands. Most of the time I’m fine, as long as I don’t have my hands grabbed or moved suddenly. But unfortunately, I’ve found that even other ‘sweet old ladies’ (let alone strapping men and younger folks) tend (again, in my experience) to both grab and swing. Perhaps they feel it shows warmth and enthusiasm, but to me, it’s like being hit with red hot pokers and being crushed by grinding stones. So I try to smile, nod, sometimes whisper something like, “Can’t shake but the Lord be with you”, etc.
And then. . .some sweet little kid will come over and want to shake hands. And of course, you can’t turn that down (I love children). Well, so then you look like a real faker/snob. And then the next week, little kid AND parents are holding out the hands. What do you say, “Your little kid is gentle but I’m going to ache for days if you shake my hand?” And as for trying to talk to people after Mass, good luck, because people head out right after communion, or start talking to others and then if you try to get through, you’re blocking the way, or everybody around will stop and listen, and want to comment. . .

I don’t like what the sign of peace can do with regard to me and those like me. It makes me very sympathetic to those such as celiacs who cannot receive the Body, but are always hearing snarks like, “It’s just a taste, how can it affect you?” “If you really believed, you’d be fine”, "This kind of thing is just fake, and you’re an attention monger’, etc.

However, I do like what the sign of peace means symbolically. I just wish, I think, that people could be as diverse there as elsewhere; that if approached by somebody holding out a hand, if I nod and smile, that both gestures would be seen as equal, that one wouldn’t offend another, or be seen as rude, hurtful, etc. (Both. I’m not limiting to one). Maybe as we go through the years this will happen as people become more accustomed to the idea that things aren’t’ one size fits all’.

 

[PetraG]

Our parish is fairly large, but we are so much in our “stanchions” like old milk cows–I mean attending at the same Mass time and sitting in the same pew every Sunday–that we know a lot of these little things about each other before very long.

You can tell just the child after Mass “I hope you know I would have loved to shake hands with you, but I have so much nerve pain in my hands that it just hurts too much. You wouldn’t want me screaming “ah” (and then make some funny face) when it seemed like you barely touched me; somebody might think you had a shock buzzer in your hand! But thanks for your beautiful smile, that is very nice.” And of course Mom and Dad and everyone will catch on, too, or they’ll ask a follow up question and you can shake your head and explain how you miss the little things you used to take for granted (which I am sure you do).