Orans Posture

[Brickmaker]

BTW, here is the piece from Spirit of the Liturgy by then Cardinal Ratzinger that made Fr Gantley change his originally negative view of the orans posture for lay people:

“The oldest gesture of prayer in Christendom is prayer with arms extended, the orans posture, which we have already briefly mentioned. This is one of the primal gestures of man in calling upon God and is found in virtually every part of the the religious world. It is first of all an expression of nonviolence, a gesture of peace. A man opens his arms and thus opens himself to another person. It is also a gesture of seeking and hoping. Man reaches out to the hidden God, stretches out toward him. Arms extended have been compared to wings: man seeks the heights, he wants to be, as it were, carried upward by God on the wings of prayer. But for Christians, arms extended also have a christological meaning. THey remind us of the extended arms of Christ on the Cross. The crucified Lord has given this primal human gesture of prayer a new depth. By extending our arms, we resolve to pray with the Crucified, to unite ourselves to his ‘mind’ (Phil. 2:5). In the arms of Christ, stretched out on the Cross, Christians see a twofold meaning. In his case too, in his case above all, this gesture is the radical form of worship, the unity of his human will with the will of the Father, but at the same time these arms are opened toward us – they are the wide embrace by which Christ wants to draw us to himself (Jn 12:32). Worship of God and love of neighbor – the content of the chief commandment, which sums up the law and the prophets – coincide in this gesture. To open openself to God, to surrender oneself completely to him, is at the same time – the two things cannot be separated – to devote oneself to one’s neighbor. This combining of the two directions of love in the gesture of Christ on the Cross reveals, in a bodily and visible way, the depth of Christian prayer and thus expresses the inner law of our own prayer.”

 

[BayernAnhaenger]

BTW, here is the piece from Spirit of the Liturgy by then Cardinal Ratzinger that made Fr Gantley change his originally negative view of the orans posture for lay people:

So, let’s review.

The rubrics are silent on it.

The USCCB is silent on it.

Then-Card. Ratzinger is silent on laity doing it.

Well, I guess that means the laity ought to go on and DO IT!

rolls eyes

 

[Brickmaker]

Then-Card. Ratzinger is silent on laity doing it.QUOTE]

How could you possibly put this construction on the quotation from Cardinal Ratzinger?

 

[BayernAnhaenger]

BayernAnhaenger;5078771:

Then-Card. Ratzinger is silent on laity doing it.QUOTE]

How could you possibly put this construction on the quotation from Cardinal Ratzinger?

What is the context of the quote? From where does it come? What precedes and follows it?

I saw nothing in the quote that said “The laity are permitted to do this.”

He merely said it’s an old way of posture.

Of course, it also has no precedent in the Roman Rite for the laity.

 

[tonio5555]

Personally, I’m not a fan. It’s just not for me. At the same time I don’t feel the need to comment on the people that do take this posture. It seems a little protestant to me personally… but I don’t find it irreverent if others choose to do so. Anyway if someone next to me tried to grab my hand and force me to “participate” I’d certainly let them know I’m not interested.

 

[Brickmaker]

Brickmaker;5078800:

What is the context of the quote? From where does it come? What precedes and follows it? **Hey, I’m not about to write out the whole book. I told you where it came from - **

The Spirit of the Liturgy. Try to keep up.

I saw nothing in the quote that said “The laity are permitted to do this.” Did you see anything in the quote that said the laity could not do so? Read it again. For comprehension this time.

He merely said it’s an old way of posture. He said much more than that. The posture has profound meaning, beautifully elucidated by the words of the Cardinal.

Of course, it also has no precedent in the Roman Rite for the laity. Take it up with His Holiness then.

 

[BayernAnhaenger]

BayernAnhaenger;5078849:
I saw it came from “The Spirit of the Liturgy.” If you don’t want to write up the whole book, then just summarize in a sentence the preceding and succeeding paragraphs.

I read it, “for comprehension,” and again see no mention of the laity. Please tell me where you see Laity in there.

Ok, so he said it has some beautiful meaning. Again, context would be useful.

Did Then-Card. Ratzinger say the laity should assume that position? The answer is NO! If you see otherwise, then defend your position. I do not see “The laity should do this in the Mass at the Our Father.” Back up your allegations.

 

[Brickmaker]

Brickmaker;5078902:

I saw it came from “The Spirit of the Liturgy.” If you don’t want to write up the whole book, then just summarize in a sentence the preceding and succeeding paragraphs. **And have you accuse me of misrepresentation? Not a chance. I’ve given you the reference, I can even give you a page numbers if you wish. Toddle off to the library and look it up for yourself. You might learn something. **

I read it, “for comprehension,” and again see no mention of the laity. Please tell me where you see Laity in there. Please tell me where it specifically excludes the laity?

Ok, so he said it has some beautiful meaning. Again, context would be useful. Well, you know what to do…

Did Then-Card. Ratzinger say the laity should assume that position? **He didn’t say they couldn’t. What part of “The crucified Lord has given this primal human gesture of prayer a new depth. By extending our arms, we resolve to pray with the Crucified, to unite ourselves to his ‘mind’ (Phil. 2:5)” excludes the laity from using this posture in prayer? **

 

[BayernAnhaenger]

BayernAnhaenger;5078915:
Well, I would troddle off to the library, but I’m in Germany, so getting an English-language copy of a book would be difficult, at least this book. And I could get it in German, but i also have classes/life to worry about.

Where does then-Card. Ratzinger say the laity should do it. YOU are the one who is supporting the orans posture. It has no precedence in the public worship by the laity over the past 500 years in the Roman Rite. You are contradicting that. Please tell me where, with your source of then-Card. Ratzinger, he states that the laity ought to employ the orans posture? Tell me.

What in “The crucified Lord has given this primal human gesture of prayer a new depth. By extending our arms, we resolve to pray with the Crucified, to unite ourselves to his ‘mind’ (Phil. 2:5)” says that the laity OUGHT to employ the orans posture?

 

[Brickmaker]

Brickmaker;5078967:

Well, I would troddle off to the library, but I’m in Germany, so getting an English-language copy of a book would be difficult, at least this book. **That’s your loss. **

And I could get it in German, but i also have classes/life to worry about. Yes, life gets in the way of so much, doesn’t it?

Where does then-Card. Ratzinger say the laity should do it. YOU are the one who is supporting the orans posture. No, that would be Cardinal Ratzinger. Frankly, I wouldn’t be caught dead using it. But that’s just me. And I wouldn’t stand in judgement on those who, like the Cardinal, find a profound meaning in it. It has no precedence in the public worship by the laity over the past 500 years in the Roman Rite. **Up to 1969, English had no precedence in the Roman Rite, so what’s your point? ** Please tell me where, with your source of then-Card. Ratzinger, he states that the laity ought to employ the orans posture? Tell me. Tell me where he forbids it?

What in “The crucified Lord has given this primal human gesture of prayer a new depth. By extending our arms, we resolve to pray with the Crucified, to unite ourselves to his ‘mind’ (Phil. 2:5)” says that the laity OUGHT to employ the orans posture?We could go on like this forever, but what is the point if you have not read and apparently have no real desire to read the Cardinal’s thoughts and philosophy on the liturgy? When you are so moved, get back to me.

 

[Polycarp78]

The former bishop of the the Columbus Diocese went all “Mahoney” and required the orans position. The first link is the bishop’s actual letter, the second is on a parish website. Notice how the Diocese does mention that the GIRM doesn’t prescribe the Orans, but the parish site does not. If you ask me, they did this to tell people to do SOMETHING with their hands to stop all the hand holding. I, however, still don’t do the orans posture; I have, however, been subject to forceable hand holding. Both are bad, the latter is worse. Deo Gratias for the EF.

colsdioc.org/Portals/0/Departments/LIT/Documents/ComGIRM3-edition.PDF
stbrigidofkildare.org/girm.htm

 

[Malkin71]

After a twenty year abscence from Catholic Mass, upon my return to the Church, one glaring change I’ve found is the Orans Posture used by the laity during the reciting of the “Our Father”. When did this become acceptable? Nowhere in the current (2002) GIRM does it say that the Orans Posture is recommended for the congregation during the “Our Father”. Please, any comments would be appreciated.

Here is Karl Keeting’s opinion on posture during the Our Father. Now I KNOW THE TOPIC IS ORANS POSTURE. But the answer can be applied to both. I remember getting this eletter when it was first sent out. This is from the founder Karl Keeting himself.

catholic.com/newsletters/kke_060411.asp

" ORIGINS OF HAND-HOLDING"

" The current issue of the “Adoremus Bulletin” says this in response to a query from a priest in the Bronx:

“No gesture for the people during the Lord’s Prayer is mentioned in the official documents. The late liturgist Fr. Robert Hovda promoted holding hands during this prayer, a practice he said originated in Alcoholics Anonymous. Some ‘charismatic’ groups took up the practice.”

My long-time sense had been that hand-holding at the Our Father was an intrusion from charismaticism, but I had not been aware of the possible connection with AA. If this is the real origin of the practice, it makes it doubly odd: first, because hand-holding intrudes a false air of chumminess into the Mass (and undercuts the immediately-following sign of peace), and second, because modifications to liturgical rites ought to arise organically and not be borrowed from secular self-help groups.

Periodically, on “Catholic Answers Live” I am asked about hand-holding during Mass and explain that it is contrary to the rubrics. Usually I get follow-up e-mails from people who say, “But it’s my favorite part of the Mass” or “We hold hands as a family, and it makes us feel closer.”

About the latter I think, “It’s good to feel close as a family, but you can hold hands at home or at the mall. The Mass has a formal structure that should be respected. That means you forgo certain things that you might do on the outside.”

About the former comment I think, “If this is the high point of the Mass for you, you need to take Remedial Mass 101. The Mass is not a social event. It is the re-presentation of the sacrifice of Calvary, and it is the loftiest form of prayer. It should be attended with appropriate solemnity.”

 

[dixibehr]

As I have mentioned, the Orans posture during the Lord’s Prayer and other times is standard in ALL the Antiochian Churches: Orthodox, Melkite, Maronite, Syriac…

As far as the Latin rite goes, I’m willing to let other people express their devotion with their hands any any non-disturbing way, and I would appreciate the same privilege.

 

[BayernAnhaenger]

As I have mentioned, the Orans posture during the Lord’s Prayer and other times is standard in ALL the Antiochian Churches: Orthodox, Melkite, Maronite, Syriac…

As far as the Latin rite goes, I’m willing to let other people express their devotion with their hands any any non-disturbing way, and I would appreciate the same privilege.

And they have been doing it for how long?

I’m going to bet it has some sort of tradition/basis/foundation.

It was inserted by the laity in the Roman Rite in the last 40 years. That’s the issue here.

 

[TLM08]

After a twenty year abscence from Catholic Mass, upon my return to the Church, one glaring change I’ve found is the Orans Posture used by the laity during the reciting of the “Our Father”. When did this become acceptable? Nowhere in the current (2002) GIRM does it say that the Orans Posture is recommended for the congregation during the “Our Father”. Please, any comments would be appreciated.

I am a bit cynical by nature. It’s one of my character defects. To me, a lot of the stuff that goes on is nothing short of “showboating”. All of the wailing guitars and jumping around I’ve seen at the protestan churches I have attended is even worse. Give it time, catholics will be hopping around like mad frogs too.

I think Jesus said to go in your room and close the door when you pray.

 

[Phemie]

Wow, I thought my RCIA parish was the only one that did this. The terrible thing is, the other RCIA class mates have started reciting this as well (I don’t).

How does something like this get started? I thought that this sort of thing happened in just my parish. I hate to hear that it’s happening elsewhere.

In parishes I’ve attended where this was done, it was done at the invitation of the celebrant. It was done in this parish when I first got here but after we got a new pastor we put an explanation of the inappropriateness of the practise in the bulletin and people stopped doing it. The only problem: the former pastor remained in the parish as assistant pastor and any time he celebrated Mass he invited people to say the doxology and was very confused when they didn’t. Note that he was confused anyway since he had Alzheimer’s and he never remembered from one Mass to the next that we didn’t do this anymore.:crying:

The pastor in the parish where I grew up even told his parish council that the doxology wasn’t supposed to be recited by the people but that he wasn’t going to stop the practise. At one point a visiting priest stopped cold when they started reciting it and said something along the lines of “I don’t know where you ever got the idea that you could say this, because your Missal is very clear that this part of the Eucharistic Prayer is only for the priest to say. Please don’t do it again.”