Orans Posture

[kk1727]

Therefore no other person, not even a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority. Sacrosanctum Concilium 22. (3). Further it is unlawful for anyone to imitate the priest. Therefore, the lay faithful should not make the Orans gesture during the Our Father. The Deacon does not make this gesture because it is a priestly gesture, just as the Deacon does not extend his hands at the Dominus vobiscum before reading the Gospel because it is a priestly gesture. If these gestures are improper for one who has received the sacred ordination, they are certainly improper for the lay faithful. On the other hand, the rubrics of the liturgy are not meant to strictly regulate every movement of the lay faithful (Cf. Directory on popular piety and the liturgy). The argument here though is against the unlawful imitation of a priest which devalues the sign of a gesture which is particular to the ordained priesthood alone in the context of the liturgy.

 

[m134e5]

It is a prayer posture from the early church. I have no problem with it in itself, I do have a problem with Catholics who advertise all sorts of ancient practices (i.e. pre-Tridentine period), and seem to want to erase the Tridentine period from history.

I guess It’s not as bad as people “helping” the priest bless someone or something, by holding their arms out like a bunch of Nazis.

Michael

 

[AuntMartha]

This is a departure from the debate, but I need an answer!

Can somebody tell me what is a “typical” position for the Our Father? I can’t remember what I was taught so many years ago, and am only recently returned to the CC. Where I’ve gone to Mass, the people typically stand facing the altar, with hands to their sides or resting on the back of the pew in front of them during the prayer.

Is this what most would expect to see during the Our Father? Should one also not bring the hands together in the prayer position during the Our Father, or is that okay too? (I have often thought that if I went to a “hand-holding-during-the-Our-Father” church, putting my hands in the prayer position might be a way to avoid that abuse!)

Sorry for the very basic question - I just don’t know.

Aunt Martha

 

[Mysty101]

This is from the USCCB
usccb.org/liturgy/q%26a/mass/orans.shtml
*
Orans

Many Catholics are in the habit of holding their hands in the “Orans” posture during the Lord’s prayer along with the celebrant. Some do this on their own as a private devotional posture while some congregations make it a general practice for their communities.

Is this practice permissible under the current rubrics, either as a private practice not something adopted by a particular parish as a communal gesture? No position is prescribed in the present Sacramentary for an assembly gesture during the Lord’s Prayer.

Email us at bcl@usccb.org
Committee on the Liturgy | 3211 4th Street, N.E., Washington DC 20017-1194 | (202) 541-3000 © USCCB. All rights reserved.

It is usually best to follow what is being done by the congregation when attending Mass.

You may read up on the documents, if you wish, but it is very rare that a Bishop will reprimand a Pastor, unless there is a serious abuse involved. The Bishop does have much leeway, and usually passes this understood approval to the pastors in minor matters. Since there is no position prescribed for the Lord’s Prayer, I doubt any Bishop would object to any reasonable posture.

Unfortunately, many people do not trust their Pastor, in which case I do not understand why they stay in the Parish.

1. The gestures and posture of the priest, the deacon, and the ministers, as well as those of the people, ought to contribute to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, so that the true and full meaning of the different parts of the celebration is evident and that the participation of all is fostered.52 Therefore, attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.

A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.

1. …With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.

 

[kk1727]

*Mysty101*:

It is usually best to follow what is being done by the congregation when attending Mass.

You may read up on the documents, if you wish, but it is very rare that a Bishop will reprimand a Pastor, unless there is a serious abuse involved. The Bishop does have much leeway, and usually passes this understood approval to the pastors in minor matters. Since there is no position prescribed for the Lord’s Prayer, I doubt any Bishop would object to any reasonable posture.

Unfortunately, many people do not trust their Pastor, in which case I do not understand why they stay in the Parish*

.

You seem to keep missing the point that it is illicit to imitate priestly gestures. I’ve seen you post regularly about the prohibitions against kneeling for reception of Holy Communion and I agree with you. There is also the prohibition of imitating priestly gestures. And in fact it is not usually best to do whatever the rest of the congregation does. If the rest of the congregation fails to strike their breast at the Confiteor should we also omitt this gesture? If the rest of the congregation fails to bow during the Credo at Et incarnatus est… should we also fail to bow?

Pax,
Keith*

 

[Mysty101]

* .*

You seem to keep missing the point that it is illicit to imitate priestly gestures.Pax,
Keith

The orans position is not a gesture limited to Priests. Am I also forbidden to make the sign of the Cross with the Priest?

If the rest of the congregation fails to bow during the Credo at Et incarnatus est… should we also fail to bow?

I did say usually, and also that there was no posture prescribed for the Lord’s Prayer, the bow is prescribed. I do bow, even though most do not. (did you notice that this was mentioned at the Papal Mass?)

 

[kk1727]

The orans position is not a gesture limited to Priests.

Yes, the orans gesture within the context of the liturgy is limited specifically to priests and in certain instances to the main celebrant when concelebrating with other priests (i.e. the other priests drop their hands and *only *the main celebrant continues using the orans gesture). Deacons are *never *to use this gesture in the Roman liturgy.

If deacons can’t do it and other priests when concelebrating can’t do it, what makes you think that the laity should do it?

As to your question: 50. When the Entrance chant is concluded, the priest stands at the chair and, together with the whole gathering, makes the Sign of the Cross. GIRM.

Pax,
Keith

 

[Hesychios]

I like the orans posture. I think everyone should do it!

The kiss of peace should be a real kiss too!

Perhaps on each cheek the way some Mediterranean cultures do it.



Hopefully dry.

 

[otm]

JKirkLVNV:

This is why I object to it. It blurs the distinction between the priest and the people.

So, if at a certain point in the Mass the priest folds his hands together, and the people do also, are they blurring the disticntion between the priest and the people?

According to the rubrics, there are several times that the priest holds his hands palms together, fingers raised upwards. By your logic, that is or should also be prohibited of the laity.

 

[otm]

Mysty101:

…or one who judges the gestures or motives of his neighbor.

Odd that a prayer posture in the pew is distracting and ostentatious, but it is OK to be the only one kneeling in a standing procession.

BINGO! You get the astute observation of the week!

 

[otm]

AServantofGod:

If a nonoffensive prayer posture is distracting then maybe the problem is not with the person sincerely trying to pray but with the person being distracted 'cause they feel everybody has to use the “right posture”.

Yeah, it’s magic!

 

[otm]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I’ll be looking forward to the juggling pictures.
No where in the ancient paintings do people hold hands and raise them. This is an unusual posture in the history of the Catholic church.
I’m sorry that someone tripped over a kneeling person. I wouldn’t be kneeling, I HAVE gone back for a later Holy Mass at my own parish to receive. However, Kneeling for communion is specifically allowed by the Vatican. Perhaps a person is from another country which is not under the US Bishops and visiting your church. That person IS allowed to kneel because he is NOT under a US Bishop.
That being said, If yours was a court case, the law would go against your burden of proof that injury was caused by the kneeling person.

And you got your law degree from…where?

So, we are not to fold our hands in prayer, or put them palms together, fingers pointing up? That is not mentioned anywhere in the GIRM either…

 

[otm]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

But that is what people are basing the Orans position on. The icons, the paintings show that the Orans position is an ancient posititon. Okay, that’s fine, but if one is doing this because of paintings and icons then the palms of Our Lord, Our Mother and the saints point toward you.
In the ancient paintings, the hands are lifted above the head with eyes up. Not simply from the waist with palms up.
When a Roman Catholic is using the Orans position in the Our Father, Jesus is on the altar. The priest is welcoming his flock to the words by pointing the palms toward them. What are the people doing? If the palms face the priest, it’s a mimick. If the palms face up, it is ignoring the fact that Jesus is right there.

Please don’t misunderstand me. The Orans position in prayer is not unwarranted. However, at the Our Father in Holy Mass, it is something else.

Some priests hold their palms facing the people, others have their palms facing upward. That is soley a matter of how they were taught in the seminary, and the same occured prior to Vatican 2 (I went to a lot of Masses prior to Vatican 2; it depended on the priest).

I always thought the priest with his palms facing the people looked like someone was trying to hold him up - that is, rob him at weapon point.

 

[otm]

AuntMartha:

This is a departure from the debate, but I need an answer!

Can somebody tell me what is a “typical” position for the Our Father? I can’t remember what I was taught so many years ago, and am only recently returned to the CC. Where I’ve gone to Mass, the people typically stand facing the altar, with hands to their sides or resting on the back of the pew in front of them during the prayer.

Is this what most would expect to see during the Our Father? Should one also not bring the hands together in the prayer position during the Our Father, or is that okay too? (I have often thought that if I went to a “hand-holding-during-the-Our-Father” church, putting my hands in the prayer position might be a way to avoid that abuse!)

Sorry for the very basic question - I just don’t know.

Aunt Martha

Well, according to the logic of those who would cite the absence of posture in the GIRM, you should not put your hands together - it is not officially required in the GIRM, and by their logic, therefore not allowed.

But I won’t run to the bishop and complain (nor to the papal nuncio, nor to any of the dicasteries in Rome) if you do.

 

[otm]

* .*

You seem to keep missing the point that it is illicit to imitate priestly gestures. I’ve seen you post regularly about the prohibitions against kneeling for reception of Holy Communion and I agree with you. There is also the prohibition of imitating priestly gestures. And in fact it is not usually best to do whatever the rest of the congregation does. If the rest of the congregation fails to strike their breast at the Confiteor should we also omitt this gesture? If the rest of the congregation fails to bow during the Credo at Et incarnatus est… should we also fail to bow?

Pax,
Keith

If you want to argue the licitness of “imitating the gestures of the priest”, then carry it to it’s logical conclusion: no one by your logic should be allowed to place their hands palms together, fingers pointing skyward, as that its a gesture of the priest at several points during the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Furthermore, that position is not mentioned in the GIRM for the laity.

 

[Swiss_Guard]

Mysty101:

No matter what you say, there is no way you could possibly know this. Perhaps you should worry more about yourself than your neighbor.–“Judge not, least you may be judged”

If this isn’t the pot calling the kettle black. Here’s someone who judges everyone who kneels for Holy Communion as a show off telling people not to judge others. You should follow your own advice.

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You might also be interested in Colin Donovan’s response to the orans posture since it has to do with unity and I know you’re real big on unity.

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Our Father

. The intention for lay people using the Orans position at this time is, I suppose, that we pray Our Father, and the unity of people and priest together is expressed by this common gesture of prayer. Although this gesture is not called for in the rubrics, it does at least seem, on the surface, to not be in conflict with the sacramental sign system at the point when we pray Our Father. I say on the surface, however, since while lay people are doing this the deacon, whose postures are governed by the rubrics, may not do it. So, we have the awkward disunity created by the priest making an appropriate liturgical gesture in accordance with the rubrics, the deacon not making the same gesture in accordance with the rubrics, some laity making the same gesture as the priest not in accordance with the rubrics, and other laity not making the gesture (for various reasons, including knowing it is not part of their liturgical role). In the end, the desire of the Church for liturgical unity is defeated. (emphasis mine)
The orans posture goes against liturgical unity. Liturgical unity is your reason to deny people their GIRM-given right to kneel for Holy Communion. Now it seems unity isn’t a big deal when it’s something you like to do. Your hypocrisy is showing.

 

[Mysty101]

Hi Swiss,
Nice to see your cheerful and uplifting posts again

 

[Mysty101]

Swiss Guard:

The orans posture goes against liturgical unity. Liturgical unity is your reason to deny people their GIRM-given right to kneel for Holy Communion. Now it seems unity isn’t a big deal when it’s something you like to do. Your hypocrisy is showing.

No, but your ignorance is. There is no position prescribed for the Lord’s Prayer, so how could any position affect unity? There is a posture prescribed for the reception of Holy Comunion.

 

[Mysty101]

otm:

Originally Posted by netmil(name removed by moderator)

That being said, If yours was a court case, the law would go against your burden of proof that injury was caused by the kneeling person.

And you got your law degree from…where?
.

Hi OTM,
Thanks—I missed this one. Let’s just dismiss the tripping hazard—we probably can’t prove it in court. Maybe we should try to get the secular court involved in other ways—maybe blocking the aisle is against the fire code?

 

[Mysty101]

PS

Originally Posted by Swiss Guard

The orans posture goes against liturgical unity. Liturgical unity is your reason to deny people their GIRM-given right to kneel for Holy Communion. Now it seems unity isn’t a big deal when it’s something you like to do. Your hypocrisy is showing.

Again this is not a GIRM given right, it is a letter-given reprieve from punishment.

1. The priest then takes the paten or ciborium and goes to the communicants, who, as a rule, approach in a procession.

The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.

“Not to be denied” means “do not punish”, not this is “their right”. The language is very precise for a reason. The norm is standing.