Ordaining women priests. What say you?

[belorg]

Do you seriously believe any of this?

No, I seriously believe all of this.

 

[SwizzleStick]

This is not ‘God’s plan’, this is the personal opinion of a guy named Paul, and yes, it is a retarded view. not that Paul is to blame for that, after all he lived in a society where women were considered inferior.
Some of us know better now.

Yes, we all know how much better things are now, how much stronger and moral the family is, with radical feminism influencing society.

Also at my EWTN link Catholic Doctrine and Catechetics, Priesthood - Reserved for Men ewtn.com/expert/expertfaqframe.asp?source=/vexperts/conference.htm:

"…However, lest it seem that God has honored men above women, we should recall that of all created beings, including the hierarchy of Angels, God raised a Woman to the highest place, the Blessed Virgin Mary. Though she was not an Apostle, she was made Queen of the Apostles, Queen of Angels, Queen of the universe, and the Mother of her own Creator. "

If you want to discuss feminism further, you should create your own thread per forum rules. This thread is about the impossibility of the Catholic Church ordaining women priests.

 

[belorg]

The word is “personification”, not “impersonation”.

Ok,I apologize. I realize that impersonation has too many negative connotations.

Gender cannot be lumped into the same category as nationality or race. If I, who am caucasian, woke up black, I would still essentially be the same person. If I woke up a man, however, I would not be. More separates men and women than simply our sexual organs. Our bodies, our hormones, our very minds are effected by our gender. Gender permeates to the deepest part of our identity, in a way that no other personal characteristic does.

That much is true.

Jesus did not simply become human, He became a male human.

Well, unless he had become a hermaphrodite, he had to become one or the other.

To ordain women priests would be to reduce the Incarnation to “Jesus became human”, weakening its theology.

Same answer as above. He couild have become a woman, but he had to choose, he couldn’t be both,

Further, being a father isn’t limited to Jewish males. The priest is to stand in the place of Christ (acting “in Persona Christi Capitas” - “In the Person of Christ the Head”), and so preside over the Body (the Church) as its Sacramental Head (Christ’s Sacramental vicar).

Yes, and in the jewish and Christian tradituion, and lots of other traditions too, the scaramental head of the family was male. Believe me, I do know there is a tradition behind it.

To do this, the priest must image Christ the Bridegroom, i.e., be a physical sign of Christ the Bridegroom, and to relate this way to the Church, which, collectively, is Christ’s Bride - His own Body (see Eph. 5:25-32);

If it’s his body, it cannot be his bride.And a bride is also connected to her husband. Just change the metaphors a bit.

Intimately connected to this is the origin of the word “priest” itself, which in the Greek of Scripture is “presbyteros” (e.g. Acts 14:23) often translated literally as “presbyter” or “elder,” but what it really means in Greek is “senior” or “patriarch”, i.e., the father of the community

.

Sure, I am not disputing that in the ancient world in most societies, the head of a community was male. But in modern society this is not the case anymore. Gardually this is changing. Women go out to work, women become heads of states and presidents…

This, of course, is the origin of the Catholic custom of calling a priest “father” (see 1 Cor. 4:15); and this is a continuity of our Jewish roots, for it was the father (and not the mother) who presided at the Passover Meal, and so over our New Passover Meal, the Eucharist.

Again, this is correct. But we are not in an ancient Jewish society now and woman can preside over meals and do lots of other things.

It was also the father or elder of the family, tribe, or clan which offered animal sacrifices on behalf of the family, tribe, or clan before the institution of the Jewish Levitical priesthood under Moses (e.g. Gen 8:20-21, Gen 15:9-18, Gen 26:25, etc.).

OK. I know that most ancient societies were patriachal. Does that mean our society should be too?

Christ’s New Covenant was a restoration of this privilege to the fathers of the entire community (the Ordination of presbyters/priests: Acts 14:23), rather than limiting it to the Levitical caste alone (as Moses had done after the rebellion of the Golden Calf). A woman, of course, is incapable of being a father, just as a man is incapable of being a mother.

That’s also true, but irrelevant.

The Catholic Church, by the Lord’s own design is a Family - a Household (Eph. 2:19-20, 1 Tim. 3:15), and thus a patriarchy by nature.

That’s just a metaphor. And an incomplete one too. Because where is the ‘supreme mother’ who is the counterpart of the Holy Father, the Pope?

 

[tonyrey]

  		*Don't you worry about the fact that people are willing to let go of their rationality for the delusion that rationality is ultimately irrational? *

In a Godless universe rationality must be ultimately irrational because it does not have a rational source…

 

[joanofarc2008]

That’s just a metaphor. And an incomplete one too. Because where is the ‘supreme mother’ who is the counterpart of the Holy Father, the Pope?

Try the Blessed Virgin Mary who Herself never took the Priesthood but instead took Obedience and Humility. Your own words discredit your argument.

 

[belorg]

Yes, we all know how much better things are now, how much stronger and moral the family is, with radical feminism influencing society.

So it’s women coming up for their rights that’s really bothering the Catholic church?

"…However, lest it seem that God has honored men above women, we should recall that of all created beings, including the hierarchy of Angels, God raised a Woman to the highest place, the Blessed Virgin Mary. Though she was not an Apostle, she was made Queen of the Apostles, Queen of Angels, Queen of the universe, and the Mother of her own Creator. "

Yes, what do women complain about? After all, the Virgin Mary was a woman, that’s enough to make up for all other things. And BTW how is she ‘Queen of the Apostles’?

If you want to discuss feminism further, you should create your own thread per forum rules. This thread is about the impossibility of the Catholic Church ordaining women priests.

I don’t want to discuss feminism. And there is nothing impossible about it, it’s easy, the Anglican church did it.

 

[vsedriver]

So, all the popes in the past who condoned the brutal execution at the stake of people who did not agree with their teaching, who held slaves, slept with every availble woman, had children etc. were right?

 

[belorg]

Try the Blessed Virgin Mary who Herself never took the Priesthood but instead took Obedience and Humility. Your own words discredit your argument.

So ,because the Virgin Mary for whatever reason chose not to become a priest (did she even have a choice?) means that no other woman acn choose it?

And the Virgin Mary is not the counterpart of the Pope. if the Chruch is a family with the Holy Father (the Poe) representing God (or Christ) then which real breathing woman represents the Virgin Mary? To have a more or less accurate metaphor, you need such a woman.

 

[davidv]

So ,because the Virgin Mary for whatever reason chose not to become a priest (did she even have a choice?) means that no other woman acn choose it?

No it doesn’t mean that. It means that priesthood is not the “highest position” as seems to be implied by those attacking the Church’s teaching. Men don’t “choose” to be priests, they discern if this their calling from God. Their choice is whether to respond affirmatively to the call.

And the Virgin Mary is not the counterpart of the Pope. if the Chruch is a family with the Holy Father (the Poe) representing God (or Christ) then which real breathing woman represents the Virgin Mary? To have a more or less accurate metaphor, you need such a woman.

Mary is still the Mother of the Church, and needs no physical counterpart.

 

[SwizzleStick]

So it’s women coming up for their rights that’s really bothering the Catholic church? …

Bothering the Catholic Church? I think hearing the Truth bothers the dissenters who wrongly feel they are being discriminated against, but the Church is not bothered by the idea that women can be priests. Holy Mother Church just continues to speak the Truth that it is not possible.

…Yes, what do women complain about? After all, the Virgin Mary was a woman, that’s enough to make up for all other things. And BTW how is she ‘Queen of the Apostles’? …

Mother Mary is a lot of things, but you might notice that even Christ Himself did not call her to be a priest.

… it’s easy, the Anglican church did it.

So? The Catholic Church has not and will not. Other churches go against the teachings of the Catholic Church all the time, i.e. they support same sex “marriage,” see nothing wrong with divorce and remarriage, abortion etc. The Catholic Church cannot do that because She teaches the Truth.

 

[SwizzleStick]

"Women Priests — No Chance
JOANNE BOGLE

There is a general assumption, especially in North America and Europe, that the Catholic Church’s insistence on a male priesthood is an obscure anomaly, which endures only because a Polish pope has refused to move with the times.

“But everyone agrees that the Catholic Church will one day ordain women. Surely it’s just this pope who is holding things back? The next one is bound to change the rule!”
The point is made frequently and always with the same confidence. There is a general assumption, at least in Europe and North America, that the Catholic Church’s insistence on a male priesthood is an obscure anomaly, which endures only because a Polish pope has, in the 1990s, refused to move with the times.

Yet the times have often favored a female priesthood and never more so than when Christ ordained His first priests, nearly 2,000 years ago. Virtually all the pagan religions of His day had priestesses, and it would have been entirely normal and natural for Him to choose women for this task. He had, moreover, a number of excellent potential candidates, from His own Mother, who accompanied Him at His first miracle and stood with Him as He suffered on the cross, to Mary Magdalene or the women of Bethany. Instead, He chose only men, and He remained immovable on this, continuing right to the end to exhort and train them all, leaving thus a Church which turned out to be safely founded on a rock. From those twelve men a direct line of apostolic succession has given the Catholic Church the bishops and priests it has today. "…

Continue reading entire commentary: catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0001.html

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

=belorg;7995934]The role of a boss, yes.

My grand father was head of the House My grandmother was the Boss.

No, there are lots of things about the Church and her teaching I find very positive. The teaching about women, on the other hand, I find retarded.
That does not mean that those who belong to and follow the teachings retarded.

That is not a teaching it is a docturinal truth that women can not be preist.

No, it’s to show you there is another way of looking at things, which does not involve discrimination.

Women have now and alwasy have had very prominant roles, The fact that they can not be preist is not discrimintory in the negetive way that word it used today. History if filled with great women of the Chruch.
Look at the way women were reguarded prior to Christianity they were property. It was the Chruch that taught that women were not, Hey a smart person as yourself knows all this. You know that the Jews would never have concidered the word of a women worth listing to, yet that is who Christ first appeared to after the resurrection.

I know what you do believe and some of the things you believe IMO have no place in a modern society.Whuy should you be the ones telling me how I should live my life if I am not allowed to give my opinion.?

You are being very judgmental for one that is fighting against being judgmental. I did not seek you out and start telling you what you belive is wrong you came here. voiceing your opinion is fine just do not call mine discriminatory as they are not ( in the way you mean).

Also we see how well modern society is doing as we move further away from teaching the principels of the Christainity. I think one looks at the violence in our public schools today verses 1960 is a good indicater. Also divorce rates. Yes secularizion has done wonders.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

What part of “The Church has NO AUTHORITY to ordain women” is so hard to understand?

The Church --that is, the Catholic Church, often called “Roman Catholic”, whose leader is the Pope.

No: Zip, zilch, nada.

Authority: Power and ability to perform an action.

Ordain: To confer the sacrament of Holy Orders whereby a man becomes a priest in the Catholic Church.’

Women: Female human beings.

I’ll repeat: The Church has NO AUTHORITY to ordain women.

Hope that helps.

 

[belorg]

belorg;7992125:

Were you under the mistaken idea that members of the Catholic Church were perfect and not sinners?

Most certainly not.

Even Popes are sinners. It is the Church that is infallible. Also you will note that these bad popes didn’t issue any infallible teachings.

That’s not the point. The point is that, since there have been bad popes, they can issue infallible teaching that Catholics must follow, no matter what. that means that in the future, one of those ‘bad popes’ issues as an infallible teaching that catholics must kill all unbelievers, you are obligated to do so.

what mistakes did the Church make? Did bad people do bad things in the name of the Church sure they did!

If a pope issues an ifaalible teaching, he is the Chruch.

Christ runs our lives through the shepherding of the Church.

That’s fine, if you want to be a sheep. If you want to think for yourself, that’s not so fine, however.

Well you don’t have to be religious for that to happen.

That is true. That’s why I dismiss blind obedience to anything.

I don’t know of anyone who is treating a human being as if he was God.

You follow one human beings command as if it were Gods. Yet you admit that that human being is fallible. How can a fallible human being issue infallible teachings?

Women can be called to many vocations. Women are not called to the clerical priesthood. Even a man who feels he is called to the priesthood must have the call discerned with the help church.

Sure.

The Pope is the successor of Peter to whom Jesus gave the keys of the kingdom. So he has the authority to ‘question’ who has an authentic vocation.

But he does not question anything. No woman’s vocation is ever questioned. It is dismissed without even listening to the woman’s arguemnt.

 

[SwizzleStick]

What part of “The Church has NO AUTHORITY to ordain women” is so hard to understand?

The Church --that is, the Catholic Church, often called “Roman Catholic”, whose leader is the Pope.

No: Zip, zilch, nada.

Authority: Power and ability to perform an action.

Ordain: To confer the sacrament of Holy Orders whereby a man becomes a priest in the Catholic Church.’

Women: Female human beings.

Bravo. This is well-said, clear, unmistakeable. This is Truth.

I’ll repeat: The Church has NO AUTHORITY to ordain women.

Hope that helps.

Bravo. This is well-said, clear, unmistakeable. This is Truth.

 

[SwizzleStick]

vsedriver;7996184:

Most certainly not.

That’s not the point. The point is that, since there have been bad popes, they can issue infallible teaching that Catholics must follow, no matter what. that means that in the future, one of those ‘bad popes’ issues as an infallible teaching that catholics must kill all unbelievers, you are obligated to do so.

If a pope issues an ifaalible teaching, he is the Chruch.

That’s fine, if you want to be a sheep. If you want to think for yourself, that’s not so fine, however.

That is true. That’s why I dismiss blind obedience to anything.

You follow one human beings command as if it were Gods. Yet you admit that that human being is fallible. How can a fallible human being issue infallible teachings?

Sure.

But he does not question anything. No woman’s vocation is ever questioned. It is dismissed without even listening to the woman’s arguemnt.

Christ founded His Church, the Catholic Church. Christ chose His priests, all men, no women. Christ is infallible. 'Nuff said.

 

[belorg]

My grand father was head of the House My grandmother was the Boss.

Yes, but your grandfather played the official role of the boss.

That is not a teaching it is a docturinal truth that women can not be preist.

There is far too little information to call this a truth.

Women have now and alwasy have had very prominant roles, The fact that they can not be preist is not discrimintory in the negetive way that word it used today. History if filled with great women of the Chruch.

Sure, they can have prominent roles, but not all the roles they want to have. That’s discrimination.

Look at the way women were reguarded prior to Christianity they were property. It was the Chruch that taught that women were not,

Yes, compared to the way women were regarded in other societies (not all of thme, BTW), Christianity was more beneficial to women. But still, women cannot make up their own choices in Catholicism, so in that respect, they are still ‘property’

Hey a smart person as yourself knows all this. You know that the Jews would never have concidered the word of a women worth listing to, yet that is who Christ first appeared to after the resurrection.

I do not know whether the Jews ‘would never have considered the word of a woman word listening to’. That’s an often heard apologetic that’s suposed to prove the resurrection really happened, but whether it’s actually true is another matter. BTW who were the Jews in the 1st century?

You are being very judgmental for one that is fighting against being judgmental. I did not seek you out and start telling you what you belive is wrong you came here. voiceing your opinion is fine just do not call mine discriminatory as they are not ( in the way you mean).

IIRC, the title of this thread is 'Ordaining women priests. What say you?" Are you telling me I cannot give my opinion? Or is this question solely to Catholics? If that is the case, I shall withdraw. But I always find it interesting to hear what other people have to say on these matters, who knows I might learn something? And who knows you might learn something.

Also we see how well modern society is doing as we move further away from teaching the principels of the Christainity. I think one looks at the violence in our public schools today verses 1960 is a good indicater. Also divorce rates. Yes secularizion has done wonders.

There are lots of factors involved here, and yes, secularization may be one of them, I am not going to dispute this. Another factor is that when people are allowed to have their own opinion, conflicts do arise. In that respect being sheep in a herd has some advantages.

 

[belorg]

belorg;7996708:

Christ founded His Church, the Catholic Church. Christ chose His priests, all men, no women. Christ is infallible. 'Nuff said.

If Chrsit had said that women could not become priests, you would have a point. If he didn’t, you are just speculating.
And if the church has no authority to do anything that Christ hasn’t done, the Church would not have had the authority to react gainst slavery e;g.
Thank goodness they felt they had the authority to do that.

 

[Robertanthony]

I wonder what would happen to the issues of female ordination, clerical celibacy, and gays in the priesthood if Italy were suddenly under the control of an anti-clerical administration that closed down the Vatican’s money supply and stole the Vatican City. Sometimes I think we’ll only see the real mettle of popes to confirm or deny the immutability of the Catholic faith when it is truly tested by war and persecution. In such a peaceful time, it is very easy to say the Church “cannot” and “never will” ordain women. How the Papacy reacts to constant pressure from its money-supplies in an increasingly non-Catholic Italy will be interesting to see. The Church was certainly quick to decline clerical marriage when the inheritance-issues of Feudalism became apparent among clergy with children.

What if a bunch of Italian liberals did blockade the City and cordon it off with Roman police? Imagine all Catholics being turned away from it. Don’t say “it can never happen”. The Papacy currently relies almost entirely on foreign investment. What if banks and corporations simply refused to keep the City funded unless Catholic “positions” and dogma were changed? I should like to see the vaunted, unchanging Magisterial dignity of truth tested properly. I hope with all my heart and soul that it never comes to that, but if it does… can the Papacy truly hold to its own in a world that will not understand or believe its reasons for disallowing female, gay, and married ordination?

You can never be sure how the world will work. We may not always be in the state, age, and political climate we’re in.

Sobering post. Things can change as fast as the flip of of a coin. Pressure on the Catholic Church to change her positions on key issues will not grow weaker, and I would not be surprised to see what was prophesied at La salette come to pass in my lifetime.

First, I’d better confess I am female. This is partly tongue-in-cheek, but only partly!

Women have a way of doing things very devotedly but also with a flurry and commotion that is not becoming in a man, much less a priest. If our priest did not almost rule with an iron fist, the above women would be up to all sorts of silliness in addition to the 100’s of things they already do. It’s one thing or another, buy new curtains for the hall, sell rosaries after Mass, etc.

 

[SwizzleStick]

SwizzleStick;7996745:

If Chrsit had said that women could not become priests, you would have a point. If he didn’t, you are just speculating.
And if the church has no authority to do anything that Christ hasn’t done, the Church would not have had the authority to react gainst slavery e;g.
Thank goodness they felt they had the authority to do that.

Apples and oranges. These two things are not at all related. What does the basic human right to freedom from slavery have to do with the Catholic Church having no authority to ordain women priests?