Order of Gospels

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Does anyone know some good sources to study the dating of the Gospels? I know that the traditional order puts Matthew first. But it looks to me that modern scholars put Mark first.

I’m not really thrilled with modern scholarship, but I don’t want to turn it off automatically, either.

Thanks!
 
I know that’s what modern scholars say. But that’s not the way tradition has it. Tradition (small t) has it: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John - just like the way they are in the Bible. At least that’s what I remember.
 
Tradition - Post Apostolic & other Early Church Fathers & internal textual evidence:

Matthew - 45-50 A.D.
Mark - Mid 50’s
Luke - 64 A.D. as Part of Luke/Acts
John - First Draft 60 A.D, Final 70-75 A.D.

Scholars - Most of whom treat the Gospels differently from all other ancient literature:

Mark - 70-75 A.D.
Matthew - 80-85 A.D.
Luke - 80-85 A.D.
John - 90-110 A.D.

I’ve read a book that has demonstrated that, if we treat the Gospels as we treat all of the rest of ancient literature, we have to accept the testimony of the Apostolic & other Early Church Fathers and the internal textual evidence.

I think scholars have much to teach us about looking at who something is written to and the cultural context, etc., but I think some of them demonstrate their own unbelief and pass it on to others when they teach about “Upper” and “Lower Criticism”.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael
 
Rick09 said:
Does anyone know some good sources to study the dating of the Gospels? I know that the traditional order puts Matthew first. But it looks to me that modern scholars put Mark first.

I’m not really thrilled with modern scholarship, but I don’t want to turn it off automatically, either.

Thanks!
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Hello Rick, I believe that the order of writing is Mark first, then Mathew, then Luke and John wrote last on Patmos.
We know that Mark was first because it is believed that it was written during the persecution of the young Christian communities by Nero. The Language of Mark is a language of suffering community. It is thought that it was being written to encourage the yhoung community in their suffering.
I believe this is why Mark goes straight into the ministry of Jesus. It begins with the Bat Qol.
Some of the lanuage used gives us clues to where it was written.
Matthews Gosepl I believe was written for the Hebrew community and it is the Gospel known as the “Fulfilment Gosepl” because Mathew wanted to show that Jesus was the fulfilment of all OT promises. This is why in Matthew (more than any of the other Gospels) we often read “…and this was to fulfil the scriptures” etc…
Luke of course wwas written for the Jews in disaspore (Greek speaking) and for Luke he wanted to show the importance of the Temple. His writings begin in the Temple and end in the temple.
And of course John was written in exile.
Anyway just a few ideas for you.
God Bless
GraceAngel.
 
if we treat the Gospels as we treat all of the rest of ancient literature
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This is the main problem with the modernist Biblical commentary. The books are treated no different than any other ancient literature.

I’ve written on this topic here:
catholicplanet.com/TSM/index.htm
III. The Writing of the New Testament

The earliest sources all state that Matthew was written first, then Mark, then Luke, then John. The idea that Mark was written first is absent from the writings of the early Church Fathers; it is a modernist idea.
 
The confusion, I believe arises that it was:

Matthew - Aramaic
Mark - Greek
Matthew - Greek (also inspired)
Luke - Greek
John - Greek

So Matthew, Aramaic version, of which we have no remnants of (that I know of) was first, but the Greek translation of it was after Mark’s.
 
Matthew - Hebrew
between early A.D. 22 and early 25

Mark - Latin
in the late autumn and winter of A.D. 34 to 35

Luke and Acts - Greek
between early A.D. 44 and early 46

John and Revelation - Aramaic
John was written probably between A.D. 68 and 80
Revelation was written between A.D. 82 and 84

I believe that Matthew’s Gospel was written by Matthew,
that Mark’s Gospel was written by Mark (with an ending added later),
that Luke’s Gospel was written by Luke,
and that John’s Gospel was written by John (and later edited by his disciples).
 
Matthew, Luke, Mark and John - The Clementine Tradition

**THE AUTHORS OF THE GOSPELS

** THE CLEMENTINE TRADITION
is in full accord with:
Code: 
		The earliest Christian historians
		Modern literary analysis
		The doctrine of the church
		Recent Church statements
 
Thanks, guys. But I have to wonder about Ron who said Matthew was written between 22-25 A.D. Jesus hadn’t even started his public ministry at that point.

Keep it coming…it all helps. 🙂
 
Rick09 said:
Thanks, guys. But I have to wonder about Ron who said Matthew was written between 22-25 A.D. Jesus hadn’t even started his public ministry at that point.

Keep it coming…it all helps. 🙂
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It is generally acknowledged that Jesus was born about 5 to 7 B.C.
 
NotWorthy said:
That still wouldn’t jive. Jesus died at the age of 33, it is understood.
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Wasn’t saying it did.
Jesus hadn’t even started his public ministry at that point.
Click to expand...
Jesus would have started His ministry.

One historian has the Crucifixion in the year 30 that you would make Jesus around 35-37.

I think Jesus’ age was said to be around 30 when His ministry began. Around 30 is not necessarily 30 but close to it. I don’t think they kept track of age like we do.
 
adrift said:
Jesus would have started His ministry.

One historian has the Crucifixion in the year 30 that you would make Jesus around 35-37.

I think Jesus’ age was said to be around 30 when His ministry began. Around 30 is not necessarily 30 but close to it. I don’t think they kept track of age like we do.
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I’m not sure it’s generally acknowledged that Jesus was born between 5-7 B.C. But I agree it’s generally acknowledged that Jesus began his ministry when he was about 30 - based on Luke 3:23-

“When Jesus began his ministry he was about thirty years of age.”

So I don’t want to wander from that much.

I like the early dates. But that seems a bit of a stretch (22-25 AD for Matthew). I don’t think many people would go along that.

Thanks.
 
Rick09 said:
I’m not sure it’s generally acknowledged that Jesus was born between 5-7 B.C. But I agree it’s generally acknowledged that Jesus began his ministry when he was about 30 - based on Luke 3:23-

“When Jesus began his ministry he was about thirty years of age.”
Click to expand...
😉 Sniff. Is that sarcasm I smell?
So I don’t want to wander from that much.
Click to expand...
I like the early dates. But that seems a bit of a stretch (22-25 AD for Matthew). I don’t think many people would go along that.
Click to expand...
Thanks.
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Exactly, Rick. You couldn’t be a rabbi (teacher) in ancient Judea til you were 30, which may explain why Jesus was 30 when he started His ministry.
 
my chronology has the Birth of Christ in the year 15 B.C.
at the time of a census when Quirinius was Roman Consul
and the Crucifixion of Christ in A.D. 19

Biblical chronologists do not agree on the date of the Birth of Christ.
Dates range from my date of 15 B.C. to 12 B.C. (Vardaman, Kokkinos)
to a number of dates in the range of 8 B.C. to 1 B.C. But there really
is no consensus on that date.

Dates for the Crucifixion range from my date of A.D. 19 to
A.D. 21 (Vardaman) to the mid to late 20’s (actually the most popular
date range about a generation ago), to as late as A.D. 36 (Kokkinos).
Most Biblical chronologists date the Crucifixion to either 30 or 33,
with some not even choosing between those two dates.
 
Does anyone remember a book about some new find on the Gospels?

I remember once reading about some papyrus that was found and it appeared to be a very early text.
 
NotWorthy said:
That still wouldn’t jive. Jesus died at the age of 33, it is understood.
Click to expand...
The bible never speaks directly to Jesus’ age. Pius tradition sets his age as 33 when he was crucified. I personally place his death at closer to 40 years old.
 
Ron_Conte said:
my chronology has the Birth of Christ in the year 15 B.C.
at the time of a census when Quirinius was Roman Consul
and the Crucifixion of Christ in A.D. 19

Biblical chronologists do not agree on the date of the Birth of Christ.
Dates range from my date of 15 B.C. to 12 B.C. (Vardaman, Kokkinos)
to a number of dates in the range of 8 B.C. to 1 B.C. But there really
is no consensus on that date.

Dates for the Crucifixion range from my date of A.D. 19 to
A.D. 21 (Vardaman) to the mid to late 20’s (actually the most popular
date range about a generation ago), to as late as A.D. 36 (Kokkinos).
Most Biblical chronologists date the Crucifixion to either 30 or 33,
with some not even choosing between those two dates.
Click to expand...
Ron, you are ignoring Josephus completely.

Why is that?

No one seriously believes that Pontius Pilate was Prefect of Judea in A.D. 19, for instance.
 
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