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U
UnumCorpus
Guest
Our parish will occasionally do a sung Latin Mass in the Ordinary Form, so it is not a terribly rare thing here in my part of the UK. It is absolutely beautiful, I love it. 
We are absolutely blessed to have an amazing choir and organ though, so our music is always amazing. Of course I realize not all parishes are like this (the one we attended back home was much more humble in its music and Latin was never sung).
Now I love Latin and chant, and I grew up Pentecostal.
So for me, full rock bands and energetic songs were the norm. Yet Latin and chant were not so odd for me due to my interest in Church history. I also have a fairly advanced knowledge of the language due to my research interests. So knowing Latin does definitely help.
Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI also understood the beauty of Latin as he established the Pontifical Academy for Latin due to his appreciation of the Latin liturgy. There was an excellent CAF blog about this some time ago, written by Christopher Check. You can read it here: catholic.com/blog/christopher-check/benedictus-et-lingua-latina
I love the following quote from the blog:
“Education, wrote G. K. Chesterton, is the soul of a society passing from one generation to the next. Latin is this conduit. It is the language that binds us to the poetry of Virgil, the rhetoric of Cicero, the thought of Augustine, and, indeed, to the political organization of the Roman world. It is also the language that binds us, through St. Thomas, to the philosophy of Aristotle. As the Holy Father made clear at Regensburg, Western civilization rests on Greek imagination and Roman organization, both irrevocably transformed in Christ at the Incarnation. There is no West without Latin.”
Of course, as a medievalist, I wholeheartedly agree.
And as someone else said above, at least Latin is spelled phonetically for the most part. Our hymnal has the Latin chants and hymns in it with the music, so it is pretty easy to follow along.
I totally understand it being a musical preference though. I admit I am very eclectic when it comes to music. If something is sung or chanted in Latin, there needs to be music and lyrics for the congregation to follow along.
We are absolutely blessed to have an amazing choir and organ though, so our music is always amazing. Of course I realize not all parishes are like this (the one we attended back home was much more humble in its music and Latin was never sung).Now I love Latin and chant, and I grew up Pentecostal.
So for me, full rock bands and energetic songs were the norm. Yet Latin and chant were not so odd for me due to my interest in Church history. I also have a fairly advanced knowledge of the language due to my research interests. So knowing Latin does definitely help.Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI also understood the beauty of Latin as he established the Pontifical Academy for Latin due to his appreciation of the Latin liturgy. There was an excellent CAF blog about this some time ago, written by Christopher Check. You can read it here: catholic.com/blog/christopher-check/benedictus-et-lingua-latina
I love the following quote from the blog:
“Education, wrote G. K. Chesterton, is the soul of a society passing from one generation to the next. Latin is this conduit. It is the language that binds us to the poetry of Virgil, the rhetoric of Cicero, the thought of Augustine, and, indeed, to the political organization of the Roman world. It is also the language that binds us, through St. Thomas, to the philosophy of Aristotle. As the Holy Father made clear at Regensburg, Western civilization rests on Greek imagination and Roman organization, both irrevocably transformed in Christ at the Incarnation. There is no West without Latin.”
Of course, as a medievalist, I wholeheartedly agree.
And as someone else said above, at least Latin is spelled phonetically for the most part. Our hymnal has the Latin chants and hymns in it with the music, so it is pretty easy to follow along.
I totally understand it being a musical preference though. I admit I am very eclectic when it comes to music. If something is sung or chanted in Latin, there needs to be music and lyrics for the congregation to follow along.
F
FrDavid96
Guest
Actually, there are.
When a word begins with an “H” followed by a vowel, the H is indeed silent.
In the Gloria, for example
It is pronounced “pax ominibus”
not “pax hominibus” even though the later is how it’s spelled.
There’s also the Lamb of God.
It is pronounced “anyus dei” even though it’s written “agnus dei”
I try to tell people we don’t eat “la-sag-na” instead it’s “la-san-ya”
Even though it’s spelled “lasagna.”
There is a little bit to learn when it comes to Latin pronunciation, but there is really very little difference. It is not as if we’re talking about a language that uses an entirely different alphabet.
P
ProVobis
Guest
H
hazcompat
Guest
Blessed Fulton J. Sheen
CALVARY AND THE MASS
…
Hence the Mass is to us the crowning act of Christian worship. A pulpit in which the words of our Lord are repeated does not unite us to Him; a choir in which sweet sentiments are sung brings us no closer to His Cross than to His garments. A temple without an altar of sacrifice is non-existent among primitive peoples, and is meaningless among Christians. And so in the Catholic Church the “altar”, and not the pulpit or the choir or the organ, is the center of worship, for there is re-enacted the memorial of His Passion. Its value does not depend on him who says it, or on him who hears it; it depends on Him who is the One High Priest and Victim, Jesus Christ our Lord. With Him we are united, in spite of our nothingness; in a certain sense, we lose our individuality for the time being; we unite our intellect and our will, our heart and our soul, our body and our blood, so intimately with Christ, that the Heavenly Father sees not so much us with our imperfection, but rather sees us “in Him”, the Beloved Son in whom He is well pleased. The Mass is for that reason the greatest event in the history of mankind; the only Holy Act which keeps the wrath of God from a sinful world, because it holds the Cross between heaven and earth, thus renewing that decisive moment when our sad and tragic humanity journeyed suddenly forth to the fullness of supernatural life.
ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/CALMASS.TXT
Peace
CALVARY AND THE MASS
…
Hence the Mass is to us the crowning act of Christian worship. A pulpit in which the words of our Lord are repeated does not unite us to Him; a choir in which sweet sentiments are sung brings us no closer to His Cross than to His garments. A temple without an altar of sacrifice is non-existent among primitive peoples, and is meaningless among Christians. And so in the Catholic Church the “altar”, and not the pulpit or the choir or the organ, is the center of worship, for there is re-enacted the memorial of His Passion. Its value does not depend on him who says it, or on him who hears it; it depends on Him who is the One High Priest and Victim, Jesus Christ our Lord. With Him we are united, in spite of our nothingness; in a certain sense, we lose our individuality for the time being; we unite our intellect and our will, our heart and our soul, our body and our blood, so intimately with Christ, that the Heavenly Father sees not so much us with our imperfection, but rather sees us “in Him”, the Beloved Son in whom He is well pleased. The Mass is for that reason the greatest event in the history of mankind; the only Holy Act which keeps the wrath of God from a sinful world, because it holds the Cross between heaven and earth, thus renewing that decisive moment when our sad and tragic humanity journeyed suddenly forth to the fullness of supernatural life.
ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/CALMASS.TXT
Peace
P
phil19034
Guest
Oh I understand what you are saying. Catholic tradition (lower case t) has often sung our prayers because be believe (lower case b) that singing a prayer is like praying twice. When you sing or chant the Our Father, it’s like you just recited it twice.No, no, no the Our Father chant is standard from parish to parish, which means that it IS written down somewhere. We’ve heard it in other parishes besides our own.
But no one ever tells us where it is written down.
If it was done week after week, every week, we would probably eventually learn it. But that’s the problem–it’s done every once in a while, so we don’t ever have the chance to learn it.
Although actually that’s just fine with us. Sorry to let you down, but both my husband and I really don’t “get” chant prayers. It seems incredibly strange–I mean that in complete seriousness–incredibly strange–to us to “sing” our prayers in a more or less monotone chant. Singing a melody is OK for praying, but simply elongating a speaking voice–it just doesn’t make sense to us.It doesn’t sound “reverent” or “mysterious” or “beautiful” to us–it just sounds weird. We’ve been Catholic now for ten years, and we still prefer just spoken prayers, thank you very much.
Perhaps it would help you and others to understand us by flipping things around. Many Catholics think it is incredibly strange (and downright irreverent) to have rock music with a full rock band in a worship service. We don’t find that strange at all. It’s what we were used to, and we still feel that it is grand and inspiring and very appropriate in the presence of God (not the True Presence, but present in the sense that God is omnipresent). Same for Gospel music–IMO, this music alone is The Music that best suits worship of God, because you don’t really ever hear it in any other setting other than “church.” Chant and polyphony are performed in concert halls all the time, but not so much with true “Gospel” music (even Southern Gospel is performed mainly in churches).
So I hope that helps you to put yourself in our shoes and see how we view chant.
Back before we converted to Catholicism, I used to say to my husband, “Catholics have more faith than any Christians, because the Mass is so strange.” I still think that. Other than Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, there is very little in most Masses, either OF or EF (and probably Latin OF–that one I’ve never heard) that would attract or hold anyone from week to week for a lifetime. It’s purely an exercise in complete and total faith.
And yes, I find rock & folk music in Church to be very distasteful and strange and distracting. Classical music helps to be meditate and focus on the Holy Sprit. I prefer Rock music when I’m drinking beer and being frivolously. I associate classical music with beauty and I believe that all beauty comes of God. I don’t think Rock & Roll is beautiful. It’s fun, but it’s not beautiful. Classical music is beautiful.
But that’s me. I respect your point of view, I disagree with it; but I totally respect it. I’m personally believe that all Parishes with 2 or more masses on Sunday should have at least one with contemporary music and at least one with traditional music. I do not think it’s right to have all music solely one way or the other.
Question for you: I’m just curious. Do you prefer Church building which are sparsely decorated and more modern, or the older Churches with lots of classical art? I’m asking because I’m curious if there this a link between music preferences and church architecture and design preferences.
God Bless
P
phil19034
Guest
Father - when you chant part of the mass, do you have music or dots, etc which help you with the chant? Or is there a method that priest learn to chant written language?
T
twf
Guest
My wife is Dominican, so I spend a lot of time in the Dominican Republic. I’ve been to multiple parishes across the country and never once has there been a single hymnal in sight. They simply don’t use them…period. Everyone simply knows all the Spanish hymns or learns them by ear. I can’t for the life of me follow along, so I just soak it in and “actively participate” by uniting the intentions of my heart to the prayer of the mass. Requesting a hymnal would probably strike them as Protestant. Mind you…even the evangelicals I know down there don’t use hymnals - they just follow along with the choir / worship band.No, no, no the Our Father chant is standard from parish to parish, which means that it IS written down somewhere. We’ve heard it in other parishes besides our own.
But no one ever tells us where it is written down.
If it was done week after week, every week, we would probably eventually learn it. But that’s the problem–it’s done every once in a while, so we don’t ever have the chance to learn it.
Although actually that’s just fine with us. Sorry to let you down, but both my husband and I really don’t “get” chant prayers. It seems incredibly strange–I mean that in complete seriousness–incredibly strange–to us to “sing” our prayers in a more or less monotone chant. Singing a melody is OK for praying, but simply elongating a speaking voice–it just doesn’t make sense to us.
Perhaps it would help you and others to understand us by flipping things around. Many Catholics think it is incredibly strange (and downright irreverent) to have rock music with a full rock band in a worship service. We don’t find that strange at all. It’s what we were used to, and we still feel that it is grand and inspiring and very appropriate in the presence of God (not the True Presence, but present in the sense that God is omnipresent). Same for Gospel music–IMO, this music alone is The Music that best suits worship of God, because you don’t really ever hear it in any other setting other than “church.” Chant and polyphony are performed in concert halls all the time, but not so much with true “Gospel” music (even Southern Gospel is performed mainly in churches).
So I hope that helps you to put yourself in our shoes and see how we view chant.
Back before we converted to Catholicism, I used to say to my husband, “Catholics have more faith than any Christians, because the Mass is so strange.” I still think that. Other than Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, there is very little in most Masses, either OF or EF (and probably Latin OF–that one I’ve never heard) that would attract or hold anyone from week to week for a lifetime. It’s purely an exercise in complete and total faith.
C
Cat
Guest
I prefer a simplistic style, with little ornamentation. I love to see art, but one or two paintings or pieces of sculpture is more meaningful to me than dozens. I love white interiors.Oh I understand what you are saying. Catholic tradition (lower case t) has often sung our prayers because be believe (lower case b) that singing a prayer is like praying twice. When you sing or chant the Our Father, it’s like you just recited it twice.
And yes, I find rock & folk music in Church to be very distasteful and strange and distracting. Classical music helps to be meditate and focus on the Holy Sprit. I prefer Rock music when I’m drinking beer and being frivolously. I associate classical music with beauty and I believe that all beauty comes of God. I don’t think Rock & Roll is beautiful. It’s fun, but it’s not beautiful. Classical music is beautiful.
But that’s me. I respect your point of view, I disagree with it; but I totally respect it. I’m personally believe that all Parishes with 2 or more masses on Sunday should have at least one with contemporary music and at least one with traditional music. I do not think it’s right to have all music solely one way or the other.
Question for you: I’m just curious. Do you prefer Church building which are sparsely decorated and more modern, or the older Churches with lots of classical art? I’m asking because I’m curious if there this a link between music preferences and church architecture and design preferences.
God Bless
To me, many of the older church buildings are “busy” and distracting.
I do NOT like clamshells because of the wretched acoustics.
F
FrDavid96
Guest
I have my own method. I’m completely tone-deaf and I cannot read music. I can learn how to sing or chant something, and do a decent job of it. For me, it comes down to strict memorization for hymns and simple experience for chanting texts (like the Collects, Prefaces or the Gospels).
For those who can read music, the Roman Missal provides the notes for much of the Ordinary of the Mass, and many (all?) of the Prefaces.
For me, I just learned “how” to chant the collects and prefaces by listening to other priests then applying the same pattern in my own mind. I cannot read the notes, but I can understand the pattern involved. It’s mainly about noticing the commas and the periods. A comma gets a certain extend-the-word-then-pause, then a period gets a different extend-the-word-then-pause. That’s the only way I know how to explain it. It also comes down to seeing the sentences as I chant them by making my eyes move a little faster than my mouth, and making the change 2 or 3 syllables before the comma or period. The end of a paragraph is a little more extended, and the final end is yet a little more.
When I was in the seminary, we did not have any formal classes on “how to chant.” It was just something we picked up by listening and imitating what we heard. That was just my personal experience. Other priests (who learned elsewhere) had more formal classes–especially if they had some musical talent and the opportunity to take some electives on church music.
C
Cat
Guest
It’s an architectural design in which the interior is shaped like a clamshell–kind of a half circle, or more like 3/4 circle.clamshells?
Acoustics in this design are awful. There are dead spots and live spots all over the auditorium.
P
ProVobis
Guest
I think it’s more than the design. Orchestral Hall (in Chicago) as many other concert halls are sort of clamshell shaped and the best acoustics are afforded. But there are factors such as height, carpeting (or lack of it), the type of walls themselves, and even the size of the crowd itself that may enhance or lessen the reverberations involved.
P
phil19034
Guest
I read on some church architecture website that it’s really about good sight lines and having the back row a lot closer to the altar (at least in Church design)
Thanks Cat. I never heard that term before in in regards to that kind of layout.
V
Vico
Guest
My Latin teacher taught us Classical pronunciation rules, so the h is pronounced even at the beginning of words.
M
M-Dent
Guest
Yup.
The shape and contours of large Churches and Cathedrals, reverberation {time of the decay of the sound} is a **major factor ** in this acoustical environment. This is why some instruments (such as a piano) simply fail to articulate notes clearly and cannot fill the acoustic spectrum. It becomes a blurry sound in a very large Church.
Yet such large acoustical environments are wonderful for bass frequencies to breath (as they need). Something the multi-manual pipe organ can produce in abundance! Along with other higher frequencies. And with dynamics that is legendary.
On a side note, it’s why (in rock music especially) cathedral ceilings can be so ideal for recording drums.
Listening to some Sacred Music is can be a testimony how Bach had a tremendous sense of the frequencies at play; anticipating the reflection of sound from hard surfaces and delays caused by the wider space. He knew what note would linger and slightly blend with the next. Like a painter.
In a smaller space with rugs; fewer hard surfaces and lots of people close together ( absorbing sound) reverb is not an issue. Thus piano and acoustic guitars ringing notes clearer. But bass frequencies can become problematic.
C
Cat
Guest
It depends on the type of piano and who is playing it.
I don’t think you would have this problem with me playing.I started taking organ lessons three years ago, and something that I have a difficult time with is respecting the pipes. Even after I release the key, the pipe has to finish “blowing the air” through itself, so the note will continue to play. What this means to me is that I can’t play Bach on the organ the way I would play it on the piano.
I’m not very good at all this yet, and frankly, I think this kind of thing frightens many “hobby” organists like me away from playing for Mass. We know we sound sub-par compared to the career organists and that’s something that a lot of people can’t handle. I have a lot of chutzpah when it comes to music, so I’m willing to make an utter fool out of myself while I’m learning.
I’ve actually been tempted to pay for an ad in the church bulletin that says, “Brothers and Sisters in Christ, I am learning to play the organ, and it will take me many years to become an expert. Please be patient with me when I stumble over the pedals, select an irritating registration, play too loud or too soft, or miss notes, or sound muddled. Sing with me, please, because it’s discouraging to practice hymns, only to see people ignoring their hymnals and keeping their mouths closed. If you cannot sing for some reason, at least give me a smile so I know that you aren’t suffering while I play. Thank you.”
P
ProVobis
Guest
Right, because what you hear when blowing air through pipes is not only one frequency but all the harmonics of it, each to a lesser extent. So if you hit middle C, you hear the C one octave above it, the G above that, the C above that, then the E, and so forth. Even outdoors an organ may lack some reverberation but it won’t lack the beautiful harmonics. (BTW, you may have some mixture stops which enhance those harmonics.)
Not the same thing with a piano which is more of a percussion instrument. Do they even play pianos outdoors?
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