Ordinary Form in Latin

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JoyIsLikeRain

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Is there a collective eye-roll among the majority of American Catholics in 2015 when it comes to the Ordinary Form in Latin?

I like it; I just can’t get to the only one in my area frequently because I moved far from that parish.

I have seen different opinions on it. Sometimes, I feel hurt seeing such divisiveness and judgement from fellow RC’s over what language and setting of mass one may attend on a Sunday.
 
The funny thing is that, for many folks, you can have a Mass in any language BUT Latin. It’s strange and I can’t figure it out for the life of me. It seems to me, however, that abuses are on the decrease over the last ten to fifteen years or so.
 
Used to go to the Latin OF but now attend the EF exclusively.
 
I really “enjoy” (not really the right word) the OF in Latin, especially if they add in the chanted responses. There is a very nice one somewhat close to me, it is not our parish, but try to go occasionally.
 
Joy,

I switched because I prefer the prayers of the EF. I find it very comforting to attend the old Mass. The EF Mass is an “organic” development of the Tridentine Form. As Pope Emeritus Benedict said " the OF is a new creation" (paraphrased). Actually, I think he used the word “banal”.
 
They (the Ordinary Form in Latin) are really rare. Sure, there are parishes with them, but not many. I almost wonder if Summorum Pontificum actually had a negative impact on the availability of parishes offering the OF in Latin where OF in Latin-goers drifted by and large to the EF after the moto proprio as the number of options for EF location grew . In other words, I would not be surprised at all if the number of Masses offered as OF in Latin are more than just noticeably lower now than in 2007.

The competition between the two Forms ( this includes other things like breviaries, etc) is really unfortunate and I am sure not at all what Pope Benedict had in mind when it came to the idea of mutual enrichment. If anything, EF folks should be more supportive of the OF in Latin…so many people I know who pray the Mass in the EF have exposure to the OF in Latin to thank for their eventual draw to the EF. Just take a look at St John Cantius in Chicago or Saint Agnes in Saint Paul, to name just two places. Just beautiful. …EF and OF.
 
40Days said:
They (the Ordinary Form in Latin) are really rare. Sure, there are parishes with them, but not many. I almost wonder if Summorum Pontificum actually had a negative impact on the availability of parishes offering the OF in Latin where OF in Latin-goers drifted by and large to the EF after the moto proprio as the number of options for EF location grew . In other words, I would not be surprised at all if the number of Masses offered as OF in Latin are more than just noticeably lower now than in 2007.
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It might have also been as a result of discontinuing the practice of laying out the Latin side-by-side in the OF Missal along with the English (or other vernacular).
 
The problem with the OF in Latin is the congregational responses. The EF in Latin is OK because it’s about 90% dialogue between the clergy anyways. But the OF, which is almost a conversation between the congregation and clergy (relative to most of the other “high church” masses) is impossible to conduct without a choir who knows Latin, and even with one, it’s not quite in the “spirit” of the Mass to allow the choir to do the responses for the congregation.

I do believe Latin in the EF is used in some extraordinary circumstances - mostly in places where the main attendees are multinational pilgrims anyways, so there really isn’t a vernacular to go by anywaysm. The Holy Sepulcher and the Vatican would be two examples.
 
Errham said:
The problem with the OF in Latin is the congregational responses. The EF in Latin is OK because it’s about 90% dialogue between the clergy anyways. But the OF, which is almost a conversation between the congregation and clergy (relative to most of the other “high church” masses) is impossible to conduct without a choir who knows Latin, and even with one, it’s not quite in the “spirit” of the Mass to allow the choir to do the responses for the congregation.

I do believe Latin in the EF is used in some extraordinary circumstances - mostly in places where the main attendees are multinational pilgrims anyways, so there really isn’t a vernacular to go by anywaysm. The Holy Sepulcher and the Vatican would be two examples.
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I don’t think this is as big a problem as you think. Most “cradle” Catholics are familiar with some of the basic responses and prayers like “et cum spiritu tuo” and the Agnus Dei. I grew up in a “hippy dippy” charismatic parish and I still knew the Agnus dei, the Tantum ergo, Ubi Caritas, Veni Sancte Spirius, Ave Maria and others with considerable fondness.

The responses can be easily written in missalettes, the Latin is not difficult and you don’t need to “know” Latin, to know what you are saying (ie, you know all the responses in English, so you know what they mean in Latin). The most difficult Latin would be in the Credo and Gloria (for the congregation), but there are easily sung chant settings in the normal hymnals that can be used. I don’t know why a Church choir wouldn’t be able to sing the Latin involved in the Gloria and Credo. Oh, Latin is not french and much easier to pronounce.
 
jilly4ski said:
I don’t think this is as big a problem as you think. Most “cradle” Catholics are familiar with some of the basic responses and prayers like “et cum spiritu tuo” and the Agnus Dei. I grew up in a “hippy dippy” charismatic parish and I still knew the Agnus dei, the Tantum ergo, Ubi Caritas, Veni Sancte Spirius, Ave Maria and others with considerable fondness. .
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Exactly. One of the things that Vatican II called for was for the faithful to know. in Latin, the parts of the Mass that pertain to them

Sacrosanctum Concillium
  1. In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and “the common prayer,” but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to the norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.
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Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.
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The very item from Vatican II that allowed for the Mass in vernacular also had a second paragraph. 👍 That should be followed as well
 
Several years ago, a priest from Malta was relieving our Pastor for a week. On Sunday morning he asked the choir to sing the Sanctus and Agnus Dei in Latin. It was an embarrassing deer in the headlights moment.

Eventually he sang them himself. It was the first time I’d heard Latin responses sung in over 25 years and I was thrilled to recognize one of them from my childhood days.

It wouldn’t be so difficult for our choir to lean a Latin setting - if they had such a desire. I realized that when a Muslim teenager learned the Missa de Angelis setting for a play recently. That Kyrie is so beautiful and the Gloria is not that difficult. The Agnus Dei and Sanctus that I remember from my childhood are also easy. It wouldn’t be so difficult to find those. I’m sure someone could put them all in a booklet and distribute it to the various parishes…oh, wait, someone already did that, didn’t he. Why then can’t we find copies of that booklet in our parishes and why have our choirs never heard of “Jubilate Deo?”
 
Phemie said:
Why then can’t we find copies of that booklet in our parishes and why have our choirs never heard of “Jubilate Deo?”
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No Kidding, Pope Paul VI takes the time to send a letter and a booklet of chants to EVERY bishop on the planet, with instructions to teach the faithful these basic chants, and it simply got ignored.

adoremus.org/JubilateDeo.html
 
I remember when I lived in Rome many moons ago, I’d attend OF at St. Peter’s Basilica at 10 am on Sunday mornings.

I used to go to Cantius in Chicago for OF.
 
I think this is what they use at the EWTN daily masses that are on YouTube. I quite like them. 😃
 
JoyIsLikeRain said:
Is there a collective eye-roll among the majority of American Catholics in 2015 when it comes to the Ordinary Form in Latin?

I like it; I just can’t get to the only one in my area frequently because I moved far from that parish.

I have seen different opinions on it. Sometimes, I feel hurt seeing such divisiveness and judgement from fellow RC’s over what language and setting of mass one may attend on a Sunday.
Click to expand...
I think it’s a good idea to prepare a congregation for bring in an extraordinary form mass later and having them somewhat prepared for what that will be like. It also keeps Latin in the Latin Church.

That being said, more priests who celebrate the OF in Latin have very specific intentions in mind. For example, a group of priests nearby celebrate an OF that way, but it’s because they don’t want to show disobedience to their bishop by celebrating the EF, even though they are allowed to celebrate it if they wish. Another priest I know, began celebrating the EF in his parish. Then the rad trads started showing up. One day they approached Father and asked him not to mix hosts from the other liturgies with the newly consecrated hosts of the EF- as the other ones are not a valid Eucharist… So that ended Father’s desire to attract this crowd so he changed it to an ordinary form in Latin. It has traditional elements- being in Latin, and yet he will keep the extreme trads away. Also, this is a good lesson of how traditionalists can push a priest the other way from authentic traditionalism by being very abrasive, nit-picky, and uncharitable.
 
Many monastic communities celebrate the OF in Latin, or in the vernacular with Latin propers and ordinary.
 
Phemie said:
It wouldn’t be so difficult for our choir to learn a Latin setting.
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Its not that difficult, and rather beautiful when rendered with enthusiasm. I learned many Latin hymns in high school (a non-Catholic, non-faith based private school), performed by our chorus. The experience sticks with me to this day.
 
codefro said:
I think it’s a good idea to prepare a congregation for bring in an extraordinary form mass later and having them somewhat prepared for what that will be like. It also keeps Latin in the Latin Church.

That being said, more priests who celebrate the OF in Latin have very specific intentions in mind. For example, a group of priests nearby celebrate an OF that way, but it’s because they don’t want to show disobedience to their bishop by celebrating the EF, even though they are allowed to celebrate it if they wish. Another priest I know, began celebrating the EF in his parish. Then the rad trads started showing up. One day they approached Father and asked him not to mix hosts from the other liturgies with the newly consecrated hosts of the EF- as the other ones are not a valid Eucharist… So that ended Father’s desire to attract this crowd so he changed it to an ordinary form in Latin. It has traditional elements- being in Latin, and yet he will keep the extreme trads away. Also, this is a good lesson of how traditionalists can push a priest the other way from authentic traditionalism by being very abrasive, nit-picky, and uncharitable.
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Indeed, there is the “rad-Trad” element that seems to be attracted to EF masses - the abrasive, nit-picky and uncharitable types that seem to laud the fact they aren’t at a vernacular mass…or even OF.
 
codefro said:
One day they approached Father and asked him not to mix hosts from the other liturgies with the newly consecrated hosts of the EF- as the other ones are not a valid Eucharist
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Maybe but I think a lot of them felt vindicated when the Church changed the English (and some other vernaculars) words of consecration to “many” instead of “all.” The ICEL has to take some heat for the 1973 mistranslation, among other things.
 
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