Ordinary vs extraordinary means of salvation

[Gregory_I]

IF they are saved by the Church, then they are saved by exhibiting divine and Catholic Faith, without which it is impossible to please God. If they are saved by the Church, then they are saved as Catholics, not as buddhists, not as hindus, not as pagans.

I am not sure how equivalent these two ideas are: TO say all salvation comes through the church is certainly true, but it gives the idea that salvation overflows from the church to those outside of it, which is NOT Equivalent to the Formula: “There is no salvation outside the church.”

One gives the idea of an overflowing fountain in the midst of a pool, and the other gives the idea of contained waters. One says, “Do not worry about having to come to me, I will come to you!” THe other one says “Come and see.”

No salvation outside the church says: Come to ME all ye who labor and I will give you rest. Enter through the STRAIGHT gate, He who climbs in over the wall is a Robber and a thief.

“All salvation comes through the church,” says exactly the opposite: Salvation is given outside the church, but it originates from the Church. Stay there, do not worry about conversion, I will get to you eventually. You need not leave behind what you have and seek the waters of life, you can keep what you have and it will flow to you…just keep yours eyes open.

Which makes you wonder, can a person be saved by half-truths? Because unnless the ignorant manifest a Sincere Catholic Faith, this is what they have.

You kinda see what I mean?

 

[chypmonk]

By changing the words you changed the meaning.
Pope Innocent III had declared infallibly:
“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all is saved.” (Lateran Council IV, 1215) link

In the philosophical science of Logic, this proposition is known as a UNIVERSAL NEGATIVE; it permits no exceptions at all!

On the other hand, by rewording it into a positive “all salvation comes from Christ … through the Church …” the door is opened to every exception imaginable, and that includes Rahner’s “universal salvation.” Let’s demonstrate the point:

Universal (Positive) Affirmative: “All men have rational souls” This proposition does not rule out the possibility of creatures, other than men, also having rational souls.

Universal Negative: “Outside of man, there are no rational souls”
This proposition permits no exceptions; only men have rational souls. (Note: Angels are intellectual spirits, not rational souls, which give life to material bodies.)

Here, the meaning of a key dogma of the Church is changed. Do you see how the positive statement opens up the possibility of exceptions?
It can be understood in the traditiional way too as Feeneyites do but the Archbishop and yourself are making it mean something it wasn’t meant to mean.

Only the baptized are members:
Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis, 1943; # 22:
“Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration ( i.e. Sacrament of Baptism) and profess the true faith.”

The above statement of “All salvation comes through the Church” is written in such a way that the average layman would think there is salvation outside the Church.

If you were on Noah’s Ark and I said “well if you jump off your a gonner-- you’ll die!” This is true. But does that mean that those who have failed to get on the Ark before the flood and it shut its doors won’t die too? No. It is only half the truth or as some say a truism. By only telling half – knowing that staying on the Ark ( in the Church) is necessary to be saved, it doesn’t follow that those who have not gotten on the Ark (not joined) will be saved by their ignorance.
as Unam Sanctam relates:
"…the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: ‘One is my dove, my perfect one. She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore her,’ and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3]. In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Eph 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed."papalencyclicals.net/Bon08/B8unam.htm

 

[Cecilianus]

By changing the words you changed the meaning.
Pope Innocent III had declared infallibly:
“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all is saved.” (Lateran Council IV, 1215) link

In the philosophical science of Logic, this proposition is known as a UNIVERSAL NEGATIVE; it permits no exceptions at all!

I am not proposing any exceptions. Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, as I said in my last post.

On the other hand, by rewording it into a positive “all salvation comes from Christ … through the Church …” the door is opened to every exception imaginable, and that includes Rahner’s “universal salvation.” Let’s demonstrate the point:

You are completely misrepresenting Rahner on this point. He did not teach universal salvation or apokatastasis - though this incorrect belief was taught by many of the Church Fathers, including Origen and St. Ephrem of Syria - but rather he taught that someone seemingly outside the Church could be invisible a member of the Church by being in the state of grace without realizing it, or an “anonymous Christian”.

Universal (Positive) Affirmative: “All men have rational souls” This proposition does not rule out the possibility of creatures, other than men, also having rational souls.

Universal Negative: “Outside of man, there are no rational souls”
This proposition permits no exceptions; only men have rational souls. (Note: Angels are intellectual spirits, not rational souls, which give life to material bodies.)

Here, the meaning of a key dogma of the Church is changed. Do you see how the positive statement opens up the possibility of exceptions?

Your fundamental error is that of rationalism. You CANNOT reduce the ineffable mysteries of the faith to a series of propositions bound within the categories of scholastic logic! God is “ineffable, inconceivable, invisible, incomprehensible, ever existing yet ever the same”, as we Orthodox proclaim in our Divine Liturgy. The arch-heresy of the West is to reduce theology from the living communion with God to a set of historical propositions you assemble like a lawyer constructing a case, or like a Protestant reading the Bible. Instead of glorying in the omnipotence and goodness of God and trusting those outside the Church to His mercy, you reduce the problem to a handful of syllogisms proving who is going to Hell and who isn’t. The problem is that theology is not a rational science as the scholastics thought - its proper faculty is not the dialectical reason but the nous, or the “eye of the heart” as St. Basil the Great calls, for which there is not even any word in Latin.

But two can play the logic game. I took several years of it in college. First of all, a universal negative impinges on the omnipotence of God. It’s not that a universal positive leaves room for “exceptions”, but rather extraordinary applications of grace. It is possible for someone who has not undergone water baptism to be in the Church, but mystically and invisibly, due to the extraordinary graces Christ has given him. The Church" is not strictly coterminous with the financial and legal institution called the Catholic Church, since the Church Suffering and Church Triumphant are also part of the Mystical Body of Christ and the Papal hierarchy has no authority over them (why indulgences can be offered up only as supplications for the souls already in Purgatory). The Catholic Church is where the Church Militant subsists. For the Church to subsist in the Catholic Church is not the same as to say that the two are identical. The Fathers of Vatican II chose that word very carefully - and let me point out that Vatican II is also an infallible, ecumenical council.

 

[Cecilianus]

Only the baptized are members:
Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis, 1943; # 22:
“Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration ( i.e. Sacrament of Baptism) and profess the true faith.”

Again, context. He is saying exactly what we are all saying - that the Church subsists in the Catholic Church, and that the laver of regeneration and the Orthodox Faith are necessary for salvation. This is not to deny Baptism of Desire or that a real faith in God could exist in someone intellectually ignorant of what is true.

The above statement of “All salvation comes through the Church” is written in such a way that the average layman would think there is salvation outside the Church.

No, it isn’t. Salvation can come to people who seem to be outside the Church - but the Church can be much bigger than just what we see.

If you were on Noah’s Ark and I said “well if you jump off your a gonner-- you’ll die!” This is true. But does that mean that those who have failed to get on the Ark before the flood and it shut its doors won’t die too? No. It is only half the truth or as some say a truism. By only telling half – knowing that staying on the Ark ( in the Church) is necessary to be saved, it doesn’t follow that those who have not gotten on the Ark (not joined) will be saved by their ignorance.
as Unam Sanctam relates:
"…the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: ‘One is my dove, my perfect one. She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore her,’ and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3]. In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Eph 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed."papalencyclicals.net/Bon08/B8unam.htm

Not sure what your point is here, since you haven’t said anything that I would disagree with. I can’t syllogize the records of Judgment Day - only trust in the mercy, goodness, and power of God. Theology must be done with the eye of the heart, not with Aristotle’s Organon.

 

[Cecilianus]

Universal (Positive) Affirmative: “All men have rational souls” This proposition does not rule out the possibility of creatures, other than men, also having rational souls.

Universal Negative: “Outside of man, there are no rational souls”
This proposition permits no exceptions; only men have rational souls. (Note: Angels are intellectual spirits, not rational souls, which give life to material bodies.)

Here, the meaning of a key dogma of the Church is changed. Do you see how the positive statement opens up the possibility of exceptions?

Also, tangentially, you picked a bad example (something it takes a scholastic philosopher to miss). I can easily think of a creature which is not a man which has a rational soul. Read C. S. Lewis’ Space Trilogy for examples.

 

[Gregory_I]

Ceclianus, why has no one until now articulated a universal negative (Which does not restrict God, he established the church to have authority that is binding in these matters), Such as “There is no salvation outside the church.” into “All salvation comes from the church.”?

IF you took logic and philosophy, then I am sure you know that in the order of things, TRUTH precedes error: THere is no error unless there is first a truth with which to err.
THis restatement appears to me to be an error, or at least inferior to the constant traditional phrasing: Therefore why should I believe it to be true, or acceptable? It is not a question of Faith, because the Fathers at Vatican II were clearly trying to equate the two statements, which do not equate, and the CCC affirms the older formula. SO it is no mistake to disregard that which seems problematic in this “aggiornamento” and simply stick to what has always been taught as true.

It seems to me, that the CCC as well as Vatican II is trying to make the church bigger than what it really is. It is solely the mystical body of Christ whic no one can be a part of without faith, and a desire for the sacraments. IN the invincibley ignorant;

How can an ill conceived notion of wanting to SINCERELY obey a pagan god possibly qualify as manifesting a divine and Catholic Faith which alone is pleasing to God? It cannot. Even if that Pagan were to conclude there must be one GOd, he would not know him, he would undoubtedly come up with some obscure and strange notions of him (Like in zoroastrianism, sikhism, Brahmism). How can this kind of a faith be pleasing to the ONe Triune GOd?

As the Athanasiun Creed says (WHich is an Authoritative Creed of the Church)

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. **Which Faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Essence of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Essence; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.