Ordinate of the chair of St Peter BCP?

[DeusExMachina]

As I mentioned in a previous thread-which CAF unhelpfully decided to close- I am considering crossing the Tiber. AS I understand that atleast the 1637 BCP reflects catholic beliefs and is modeled on the medieval Sarum rite (without the protestant heresies of 1549, 1552, and 1662, or the abandonment of sacred tradition of 1928) I am very keen to preserve my sacramental heritage. Due to these things I have become interested in the Ordinate of the chair of St Peter. Could anyone who is part of this group tell me which BCP the service is modeled on?

 

[Michael68]

As I mentioned in a previous thread-which CAF unhelpfully decided to close- I am considering crossing the Tiber. AS I understand that atleast the 1637 BCP reflects catholic beliefs and is modeled on the medieval Sarum rite (without the protestant heresies of 1549, 1552, and 1662, or the abandonment of sacred tradition of 1928) I am very keen to preserve my sacramental heritage. Due to these things I have become interested in the Ordinate of the chair of St Peter. Could anyone who is part of this group tell me which BCP the service is modeled on?

What is BCP?

 

[DeusExMachina]

What is BCP?

Book of Common Prayer. It essentially contains all the formulas for various types and aspects of Anglican services

 

[liturgyluver]

It was always my understanding that the 1549 book is the most catholic of all as it was an English translation of the Sarum Canon, but additionally included all the Proper of the mass. A staunchly Anglo-Catholic Church near me uses this rite. The 1637 was a Scottish derivative of this.

 

[Jon_S_1]

As I mentioned in a previous thread-which CAF unhelpfully decided to close- I am considering crossing the Tiber. AS I understand that atleast the 1637 BCP reflects catholic beliefs and is modeled on the medieval Sarum rite (without the protestant heresies of 1549, 1552, and 1662, or the abandonment of sacred tradition of 1928) I am very keen to preserve my sacramental heritage. Due to these things I have become interested in the Ordinate of the chair of St Peter. Could anyone who is part of this group tell me which BCP the service is modeled on?

I think this article will help you!!

They just came out with a Roman Missal for the ordinariate that is what is used exclusively. It seems to have rave reviews from those in the ordinariate.

m.ncregister.com/daily-news/our-ladys-dowry-new-ordinariate-missal-makes-advent-history/#.Vls9s1U77CQ

 

[DeusExMachina]

It was always my understanding that the 1549 book is the most catholic of all as it was an English translation of the Sarum Canon, but additionally included all the Proper of the mass. A staunchly Anglo-Catholic Church near me uses this rite. The 1637 was a Scottish derivative of this.

But you see, the 1637 version contains the handiwork of Bishops Laud and Andrewes, which leads to slight differences in the liturgy (such as the implicit designation of the mass as a sacrifice via changing the consecration prayer orders, as well as allowance of adoration) absent from the 1549 version

 

[Jon_S_1]

But you see, the 1637 version contains the handiwork of Bishops Laud and Andrewes, which leads to slight differences in the liturgy (such as the implicit designation of the mass as a sacrifice via changing the consecration prayer orders, as well as allowance of adoration) absent from the 1549 version

Problems like these were addressed in the creation of the new missal. The new missal is fully Catholic while preserving Anglican liturgical styles and traditions.

 

[guanophore]

As I mentioned in a previous thread-which CAF unhelpfully decided to close- I am considering crossing the Tiber. AS I understand that atleast the 1637 BCP reflects catholic beliefs and is modeled on the medieval Sarum rite (without the protestant heresies of 1549, 1552, and 1662, or the abandonment of sacred tradition of 1928) I am very keen to preserve my sacramental heritage. Due to these things I have become interested in the Ordinate of the chair of St Peter. Could anyone who is part of this group tell me which BCP the service is modeled on?

Take a deep breath, and welcome to CAF Deus.

It is true that threads sometimes seems suddenly closed. There are way more members and thread than there are mods to monitor them, but special care is taken to close threads that violate forum rules, foment dissention, or appear to be going off topic.

One of the forum rules is that we are not to criticize the moderator actions. If you wish, you can always send a private message to the mod asking for information. If something was out of order, it may be able to be prevented in the future.

 

[DeusExMachina]

Problems like these were addressed in the creation of the new missal. The new missal is fully Catholic while preserving Anglican liturgical styles and traditions.

Well thats good to hear

 

[DeusExMachina]

Take a deep breath, and welcome to CAF Deus.

It is true that threads sometimes seems suddenly closed. There are way more members and thread than there are mods to monitor them, but special care is taken to close threads that violate forum rules, foment dissention, or appear to be going off topic.

One of the forum rules is that we are not to criticize the moderator actions. If you wish, you can always send a private message to the mod asking for information. If something was out of order, it may be able to be prevented in the future.

The problem is, Im not actually sure which moderator closed it

 

[liturgyluver]

But you see, the 1637 version contains the handiwork of Bishops Laud and Andrewes, which leads to slight differences in the liturgy (such as the implicit designation of the mass as a sacrifice via changing the consecration prayer orders, as well as allowance of adoration) absent from the 1549 version

But the 1637 version also omits the Kyries, places the Gloria at the end (rather than after the Kyries in the 1549 version) doesn’t instruct the priest to wear vestments (as does the 1549 version), omits the Benedictus. The wording of the Canon is identical to the 1637 version. The 1637 book included the following rubric which seems to negate adoration:

And to take away the superstition, which any person hath or might have in the Bread and Wine (though it be lawfull to have wafer bread) it shall suffice that the Bread be such as is usuall : yet the best and purest Wheat Bread that conveniently may be gotten. And if any of the Bread and Wine remaine, which is consecrated, it shall be reverently eaten and drunk by such of the communicants only as the Presbyter which celebrates shall take unto him, but it shall not be carried out of the Church.

 

[DeusExMachina]

But the 1637 version also omits the Kyries, places the Gloria at the end (rather than after the Kyries in the 1549 version) doesn’t instruct the priest to wear vestments (as does the 1549 version), omits the Benedictus. The wording of the Canon is identical to the 1637 version. The 1637 book included the following rubric which seems to negate adoration:

And to take away the superstition, which any person hath or might have in the Bread and Wine (though it be lawfull to have wafer bread) it shall suffice that the Bread be such as is usuall : yet the best and purest Wheat Bread that conveniently may be gotten. And if any of the Bread and Wine remaine, which is consecrated, it shall be reverently eaten and drunk by such of the communicants only as the Presbyter which celebrates shall take unto him, but it shall not be carried out of the Church.

Fair point, however, I would like to point out that it is not, in the end, the ornaments which make us catholic, but our beliefs. And about the kyrie, I have the 37 BCP right here and it has the kyrie during the 10 commandments

 

[liturgyluver]

Fair point, however, I would like to point out that it is not, in the end, the ornaments which make us catholic, but our beliefs. And about the kyrie, I have the 37 BCP right here and it has the kyrie during the 10 commandments

That’s not the Kyrie, just a versicle response that is in all the other Prayer books. I have never seen the 1637 book being held up as example by other Anglo-Catholic parishes (though perhaps things are different this side of the pond). The Walsingham Ordinariate uses the 1549 book shape in the main, but not sure about the Chair of St Peter.

 

[DeusExMachina]

That’s not the Kyrie, just a versicle response that is in all the other Prayer books. I have never seen the 1637 book being held up as example by other Anglo-Catholic parishes (though perhaps things are different this side of the pond). The Walsingham Ordinariate uses the 1549 book shape in the main, but not sure about the Chair of St Peter.

Thats becuase the 1637 book was only ever used in scotland after 1764 and in some more Catholic-leaning American churches

 

[Peter_J]

As I mentioned in a previous thread-which CAF unhelpfully decided to close- I am considering crossing the Tiber. AS I understand that atleast the 1637 BCP reflects catholic beliefs and is modeled on the medieval Sarum rite (without the protestant heresies of 1549, 1552, and 1662, or the abandonment of sacred tradition of 1928) I am very keen to preserve my sacramental heritage. Due to these things I have become interested in the Ordinate of the chair of St Peter. Could anyone who is part of this group tell me which BCP the service is modeled on?

If you have an Anglican-Use parish in your area, why not visit it and see?

 

[DeusExMachina]

If you have an Anglican-Use parish in your area, why not visit it and see?

I would, but the closest is a 5-hour drive away

 

[Peter_J]

I would, but the closest is a 5-hour drive away

Oh I C. Then to my way of thinking, you actually don’t have an Anglican-use parish in your area.

 

[KjetilK]

Here is the information about the liturgy and missal(s) from the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham, and here is the same kind of information from the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter.

 

[DeusExMachina]

Here is the information about the liturgy and missal(s) from the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham, and here is the same kind of information from the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter.

Thanks

 

[porthos11]

I have not yet read the front material to DWM, but we need to understand that DWM is not based on any BCP. It’s based, first and foremost, on the Roman Missal. Then, it incorporates elements of the BCP. Now what BCP they’re from, I cannot be sure, but because it’s only elements, it’s likely texts that are identical, or nearly so, across multiple BCP editions (the DWM FAQ states they referred back to BCP as early as 1549).

For example, these are the BCP elements you can expect in DWM:

The Collect for Purity (one of my favourite prayers)
The Summary of the Law
The Penitential Rite (omitted if the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar are used)
The Comfortable Words
The Prayer of Humble Access
The Thanksgiving.

You will note that the BCP Eucharistic Prayer is NOT used. DWM uses the Roman Canon, in Elizabethan English (a reworded Roman Eucharistic Prayer II is also permitted for weekdays, etc.)

Quick spot-checks seem to indicate that in prayers such as Humble Access and the Thanksgiving of DWM are virtually identical, with minor editorial differences, to the edition of 1549. Humble Access is also pretty much as printed in the Canadian BCP of 1962, while there is a quite a bit of expansion in the Thanksgiving in the Canadian BCP, which seems to indicate that DWM preferred the older versions in at least certain cases.