Ordination Mass on Saturday in regards to Sunday Obligation

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Hello,
Tomorrow my son’s godfather will be getting ordained at an 11am mass (Saturday). Does this fulfill my Sunday obligation? I am aware that Saturday wedding’s do not count so I am assuming it is the same rule in this case. I don’t mind going twice but the main reason I ask is that my wife is not Catholic and she doesn’t understand why going once on a weekend isn’t enough. If you have any explanations on this rule I would love to have a way of explaining it to her better. Thanks!
 
An 11 am Mass does not meet the obligation. A Saturday evening Mass, generally considered to be 4 pm or later in the US, would fulfill your obligation. Please note that any Mass celebrated in a Catholic rite fulfills the obligation, including a wedding and ordination Mass. There is no requirement that it be a regular Mass or include the normal scripture readings for the day.
 
Hello,
Tomorrow my son’s godfather will be getting ordained at an 11am mass (Saturday). Does this fulfill my Sunday obligation? I am aware that Saturday wedding’s do not count so I am assuming it is the same rule in this case. I don’t mind going twice but the main reason I ask is that my wife is not Catholic and she doesn’t understand why going once on a weekend isn’t enough. If you have any explanations on this rule I would love to have a way of explaining it to her better. Thanks!
Sunday Mass is on Sunday. By grace we are allowed to fulfill our Sunday obligation by attending on Saturday evening (and you can check elsewhere for what defines “Saturday evening”; I think it is no later than 4:30 but possibly 4, and normally has the same readings as Sunday).

The Ordination Mass is in the morning, and is not likely to be the same readings as Sunday.

Saturday is not Sunday. We go to the earlier Mass to honor and pray for, and participate in the ordination of priests. This is something we would do if it were on Tuesday afternoon, or Wednesday evening; but it is scheduled for Saturday as a convenience to all who wish to attend. That is why it is on the weekend, and has nothing to do with our Sunday obligation.

A slightly different perspective: You might stop by your mother’s house when doing an errand for her, either because she needs what you bought, or it is close by, and delivering it gives you more room in the car. That does not excuse skipping the Sunday dinner she is preparing for you. “why do you have to see your Mother so much?” speaks of an underlying issue… and a simple answer is “Because I love her.”.
 
Thank you for the responses. That is a good analogy to use!
 
Sunday Mass is on Sunday. By grace we are allowed to fulfill our Sunday obligation by attending on Saturday evening (and you can check elsewhere for what defines “Saturday evening”; I think it is no later than 4:30 but possibly 4, and normally has the same readings as Sunday).

The Ordination Mass is in the morning, and is not likely to be the same readings as Sunday.

Saturday is not Sunday. We go to the earlier Mass to honor and pray for, and participate in the ordination of priests. This is something we would do if it were on Tuesday afternoon, or Wednesday evening; but it is scheduled for Saturday as a convenience to all who wish to attend. That is why it is on the weekend, and has nothing to do with our Sunday obligation.

A slightly different perspective: You might stop by your mother’s house when doing an errand for her, either because she needs what you bought, or it is close by, Andy delivering it gives you more room in the car. That does not excuse skipping the Sunday dinner she is preparing for you. “why do you have to see your Mother so much?” speaks of an underlying issue… and a simple answer is “Because I love her.”.
The readings have no bearing on the obligation. Any Mass celebrated at 4:00PM or later on Saturday fulfills the Sunday obligation.
 
… I don’t mind going twice but the main reason I ask is that my wife is not Catholic and she doesn’t understand why going once on a weekend isn’t enough. If you have any explanations on this rule I would love to have a way of explaining it to her better. …
I think the question of fulfilling (or not) Sunday Obligation with a Saturday Mass has been answered.

It may be helpful to the OP to follow up with an explanation of why it is so. His wife, like many Protestants, may regard the Catholic position as legalistic.

I can’t do this right now, but I’ll try to come back later.

It comes down to the necessity of attending Mass with the whole Church on Sunday. This is a biblical precept. However, with that principle we then need guidelines on what actually constitutes “Sunday” Mass.

I had a similar question in my first year in the Church. I was attending daily Mass, but once missed Sunday. When I asked my priest in the confessional about this he was adamant - Sunday Mass is required in a special way, and nothing substitutes for it.
 
Hello,
Tomorrow my son’s godfather will be getting ordained at an 11am mass (Saturday). Does this fulfill my Sunday obligation? I am aware that Saturday wedding’s do not count so I am assuming it is the same rule in this case. I don’t mind going twice but the main reason I ask is that my wife is not Catholic and she doesn’t understand why going once on a weekend isn’t enough. If you have any explanations on this rule I would love to have a way of explaining it to her better. Thanks!
Originally, Pope Paul VI gave this instruction in the 1967 Eucharisticum Mysterium:
  1. Anticipating the Sunday and Feast Day Masses on the Previous Evening
Where permission has been granted by the Apostolic See to fulfill the Sunday obligation on the preceding Saturday evening, pastors should explain the meaning of this permission carefully to the faithful and should ensure that the significance of Sunday is not thereby obscured. The purpose of this concession is in fact to enable the Christians of today to celebrate more easily the day of the resurrection of the Lord.

All concessions and contrary customs notwithstanding, when celebrated on Saturday this Mass may be celebrated only in the evening, at times determined by the local Ordinary.

In these cases the Mass celebrated is that assigned in the calendar to Sunday, the homily and the prayer of the faithful are not to be omitted.

What has been said above is equally valid for the Mass on holy days of obligation which for the same reason has been transferred to the preceding evening. …

adoremus.org/eucharisticummysterium.html

The canon law was revised in 1983 and made less restrictive.

What is ‘the evening of the previous day’? Despite the view of some commentators that this should be interpreted as beginning only at 1400 hours (2 pm) on that day, it is the firm view of this commentary that the evening of the previous day begins at midday (12 noon) on that day itself. In some dioceses there is a local regulation to the effect that the so-called vigil or anticipated Mass may not be celebrated before, say, 5 pm or 6 pm: this is normally for pastoral reasons, e.g. to facilitate weddings or funerals in the parish and other churches. Those regulations do not in any way concern the time prescribed for fulfilling the obligation to assist at Mass: thus, e.g., if . . . a person were to attend a nuptial Mass in the early afternoon on a Saturday, that person would thereby have fulfilled the obligation.
The Canon Law: Letter & Spirit : A Practical Guide to the Code of Canon Law, Edited by Gerard Sheehy et al., 1995, p. 702. (Opinion of Fr. Raymond Browne)
 
Hello,
Tomorrow my son’s godfather will be getting ordained at an 11am mass (Saturday). Does this fulfill my Sunday obligation? I am aware that Saturday wedding’s do not count so I am assuming it is the same rule in this case. I don’t mind going twice but the main reason I ask is that my wife is not Catholic and she doesn’t understand why going once on a weekend isn’t enough. If you have any explanations on this rule I would love to have a way of explaining it to her better. Thanks!
No.

It must be an evening (or later, such as in the night) Mass on Saturday.

A Mass on Saturday morning or even Saturday after noon does not meet the criteria of the canon.

Can. 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4N.HTM

The word used (in Latin) is vespere, which corresponds to 4 o’clock (or 1600 hours) according to the secular clock.
 
This is a cut-and-paste from Michelle Arnold an Apologist here in Catholic Answers. A similar question was asked of her as the question comes up frequently about whether or not attending a nuptial Mass on a Saturday meets the requirements for Sunday. In her answer she states that the readings do not matter, however Rome has never been specific on what time exactly “evening” begins officially. Here is her response or you can search the forum and read it for yourself:

First, let’s look at the Sunday obligation requirement from the 1983 Code of Canon Law:

Quote:
§1 The obligation of assisting at Mass is satisfied wherever Mass is celebrated in a Catholic rite either on a holy day itself or on the evening of the previous day (canon 1248).

Two things are clear from this directive, one is unclear. First, what is clear:
The Sunday obligation is satisfied wherever Mass is celebrated in a Catholic rite: This means that the Mass itself does not have to be specifically a Saturday vigil Mass; it can be a nuptial Mass, a funeral Mass, an ordination Mass, an indult Tridentine Mass, an Eastern Catholic divine liturgy, etc. So long as it is a eucharistic liturgy celebrated licitly according to a Catholic rite, it meets the Sunday obligation.
Because the obligation is satisfied by any Catholic eucharistic liturgy, the readings of the Mass do not matter. The readings only matter in that they must be appropriate to the liturgy being celebrated; they do not determine whether or not a person can satisfy his Sunday obligation at that Mass.
In and of itself, a nuptial Mass may satisfy the Sunday obligation because it is an authentic eucharistic liturgy celebrated according to a Catholic rite. The only thing that remains unclear is the timing of the Mass:
Can a nuptial Mass held in the early afternoon on Saturday fulfill the Sunday obligation?
To date, Rome has not been specific about the time at which a Saturday Mass must be celebrated in order for it to fulfill a person’s Sunday obligation. This is an area over which canonists disagree, and over which we may hope that Rome will become more specific.

Here are two representative opinions from canonists:

Quote:
The obligation to participate in the Mass may be satisfied at any time during the twenty-four hours of the feast day itself, on the evening before it. “Evening” should be understood as anytime from 4:00 PM onward. The legislator uses the word “evening” (vesper), not “afternoon” (post meridiem); in keeping with the proper meaning of the word … an afternoon Mass before 4:00 is not an evening Mass and does not satisfy the obligation (New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law, Canon Law Society of America, 2000).

Quote:
What is “the evening of the previous day”? Despite the view of some commentators that this should be interpreted as beginning only at 1400 hours (2 PM) on that day, it is the firm view of this commentary that the evening of the previous day begins at midday (12 noon) on that day itself. In some dioceses there is a local regulation to the effect that the so-called vigil or anticipated Mass may not be celebrated before, say 5 or 6 PM… Those regulations do not in any way concern the time prescribed for fulfilling the obligation to assist at Mass: thus e.g. if in such a diocese a person were to attend a nuptial Mass in the early afternoon on Saturday, that person would have fulfilled the obligation … of this canon [1248] (The Canon Law: Letter & Spirit, Canon Law Society of Great Britain and Ireland, 1995).

Until Rome makes a definitive ruling on the issue, the only definitive timing we have for fulfilling the Sunday or holy day obligation on the previous day is afternoon. You’re free to pick your “expert opinion” as to time in the afternoon, but the only clear restriction is that a Saturday morning Mass would not fulfill the obligation.

Recommended reading:

Fulfilling the Sunday Obligation on Saturday (Part 2) by Jimmy Akin
Also, the intention of the 1983 canon law was to not make the time precise, per the Exegetical Commentary of 2004.

dans6022 wrote in 2010:
“the “Exegetical Commentary” (a Spanish production) also adopts the idea that “evening” begins at noon. It doesn’t cite anything authoritative to support this except a comment made by those who wrote the canon that the wording is “intentionally ‘general in order to avoid casuist situations and anxieties.’” The citation is to Communicationes 15, pp. 251-253.”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=492772
 
The Code of Canon Law states that (to fulfill the Sunday obligation) a Mass must be in the evening of Saturday.

Can. 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.

Canon 1248 does not say “afternoon” or “after noon.”

Therefore, in order to meet the obligation as defined by the canon, the Mass must be in the evening.
 
Also, the intention of the 1983 canon law was to not make the time precise, per the Exegetical Commentary of 2004.

dans6022 wrote in 2010:
“the “Exegetical Commentary” (a Spanish production) also adopts the idea that “evening” begins at noon. It doesn’t cite anything authoritative to support this except a comment made by those who wrote the canon that the wording is “intentionally ‘general in order to avoid casuist situations and anxieties.’” The citation is to Communicationes 15, pp. 251-253.”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=492772
I wrote that but find myself to be of the opinion that the “general” aspect of the Canon refers mostly to the fact that the Mass is any of any Catholic rite.

Besides, we’re talking about an 11:00 am Mass here. Nobody would say that it can fulfill the Sunday obligation.

Dan
 
Those of us who advocate 4 p.m. or later base our opinion on Pius XII’s 1953 Apostolic Constitution Christus Dominus in which we find this:

With Reference to Evening Masses
(Constitution, Rule VI)


By the force of the Constitution the Ordinaries of places have the faculty of permitting the saying of evening Masses in their own territory, should circumstances render this necessary. This holds true despite the command of canon 821, # 1. (1917’s Code) The common good sometimes demands the saying of Mass after midday: For example, for the workers in some industries who work their shifts even on feast days, for those categories of workers who must be on the job during the morning hours of feast days, like dock workers, and likewise for those who have come in great numbers and from considerable distances for some religious or social celebration, etc.
  1. Such Masses, however, may not be said before four o’clock in the afternoon(…)
 
Those of us who advocate 4 p.m. or later base our opinion on Pius XII’s 1953 Apostolic Constitution Christus Dominus in which we find this:

With Reference to Evening Masses
(Constitution, Rule VI)


By the force of the Constitution the Ordinaries of places have the faculty of permitting the saying of evening Masses in their own territory, should circumstances render this necessary. This holds true despite the command of canon 821, # 1. (1917’s Code) The common good sometimes demands the saying of Mass after midday: For example, for the workers in some industries who work their shifts even on feast days, for those categories of workers who must be on the job during the morning hours of feast days, like dock workers, and likewise for those who have come in great numbers and from considerable distances for some religious or social celebration, etc.
  1. Such Masses, however, may not be said before four o’clock in the afternoon(…)
That is odd indeed, since Eucharisticum Mysterium (25 May 1967) abrogated Christus Dominus (6 January 1953). In 1953 there was also a three hour communion fast. Eucharisticum Mysterium is overridden by the 1983 CIC for anything contrary, per Can. 2:

Can. 2 For the most part the Code does not determine the rites to be observed in the celebration of liturgical actions. Accordingly, liturgical laws which have been in effect hitherto retain their force, except those which may be contrary to the canons of the Code.

Also, as examples of actual application, there are regular earlier than 4 PM Vigil Saturday Masses at these two churches:
  • Guardian Angels Cathedral in Las Vegas, NV –
    Saturday: Vigil 2:30pm, 4:00pm, 5:30pm
  • Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception in Kansas City, MO –
    SATURDAY
    [Both Masses fulfill the Sunday Obligation]
    2:30 p.m. Music led by Cantor and Organ. The Schola Cantorum leads the music for two weekends each month. [Sept-May]
    4:30 p.m. Music led by Cantor and Organ.
And as Dan commented, the Saturday 11 AM will not apply.
 
That is odd indeed, since Eucharisticum Mysterium (25 May 1967) abrogated Christus Dominus (6 January 1953). In 1953 there was also a three hour communion fast. Eucharisticum Mysterium is overridden by the 1983 CIC for anything contrary, per Can. 2:
Can. 2 For the most part the Code does not determine the rites to be observed in the celebration of liturgical actions. Accordingly, liturgical laws which have been in effect hitherto retain their force, except those which may be contrary to the canons of the Code.
Eucharisticum Mysterium says the Anticipated Mass must take place in the evening, a time already defined as not before 4 p.m. by Christus Dominus. I’ve seen nothing in the 1983 Code that changes that timing. It still calls for an evening Mass.
 
Eucharisticum Mysterium says the Anticipated Mass must take place in the evening, a time already defined as not before 4 p.m. by Christus Dominus. I’ve seen nothing in the 1983 Code that changes that timing. It still calls for an evening Mass.
The first comment was that using the 1953 document that was abrogated seems odd.

The 1967 Eucharisticum Mysterium is about anticipated masses. The 1953 Christus Dominus Rule VI, is not. Christus Dominus was issued to counter 1917 CIC Can. 821 against afternoon masses.

A specific time for the beginning of evening was not defined in Eucharisticum Mysterium nor in the 1983 CIC. The 1983 CIC constructors commented that it was intentionally made vague, and also it was considered to be a concession, and the Liturgical Norms already state that observance of Sunday begins on the prior evening, so if Can. 1248 intended 4 PM, it would not be a concession.
 
When I go to First Saturday Masses, we are always reminded that the morning Mass does not meet Sunday obligation at all.
 
The readings have no bearing on the obligation. Any Mass celebrated at 4:00PM or later on Saturday fulfills the Sunday obligation.
I guess that depends on who you talk to; as I have heard it explained both ways.
 
That is odd indeed, since Eucharisticum Mysterium (25 May 1967) abrogated Christus Dominus (6 January 1953). In 1953 there was also a three hour communion fast. Eucharisticum Mysterium is overridden by the 1983 CIC for anything contrary, per Can. 2:

Can. 2 For the most part the Code does not determine the rites to be observed in the celebration of liturgical actions. Accordingly, liturgical laws which have been in effect hitherto retain their force, except those which may be contrary to the canons of the Code.

Also, as examples of actual application, there are regular earlier than 4 PM Vigil Saturday Masses at these two churches:
  • Guardian Angels Cathedral in Las Vegas, NV –
    Saturday: Vigil 2:30pm, 4:00pm, 5:30pm
  • Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception in Kansas City, MO –
    SATURDAY
    [Both Masses fulfill the Sunday Obligation]
    2:30 p.m. Music led by Cantor and Organ. The Schola Cantorum leads the music for two weekends each month. [Sept-May]
    4:30 p.m. Music led by Cantor and Organ.
In various Romance Languages, “evening” as far as a term popularly employed begins once the after-lunch siesta has ended.

I have known of these two Masses in the United States for many years…they are both cathedrals and they have endured through several changes of episcopate and through several ad limina visits to the Holy See – and these Masses, that are otherwise seemingly so early, remain as anticipated Masses for Sunday.
 
I guess that depends on who you talk to; as I have heard it explained both ways.
No, it does not depend on whom one speaks to. The relevant canon law has been quoted several times in this thread. See posts #9-12. The canon requires attendance at Mass on Sunday or Saturday evening. It does not require that the Mass be the Mass of the Day, or have any specific readings. See posts #9-12 in this thread.
 
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