Organic/Inorganic -- Sheesh!

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You failed to give us your definition of ‘organic’ here, ignored my question and didn’t respond to me at all, just provided us with some rather pointless blather.

Well at least YOU don’t look foolish here…:rolleyes:

To be frank, you sound rude and immature. I personally care very much whether or not a Sacrament is invalid as it refers to whether or not a Sacrament actually took place. If you don’t care about the Sacraments I suppose it does not matter. I, and many others, happen to care very much.

You appear to be annoyed because you cannot logically argue against someone claiming that the Novus Ordo is not an organic development springing from the Tridentine Mass, and so have resorted to name-calling instead. Bravo, quite an intelligent argument. God forbid someone say something you disagree with.

If I am wrong and you can logically argue against this, be my guest, provide us with your argument. Otherwise this thread is just a mindless rant on your part, bemoaning the fact that other people are using a word you *don’t *like about a Mass you happen to like.
Are we back to talking about the “validity” of sacraments or are we going to stick with organic development?

Anywho, it would seem to me that the Pauline Mass was based not on the Tridentine Mass from the Middle Ages, but sometime far older with its roots in the early church.

It’s laughable to see people feel they can dismiss the Pauline Mass because they feel its development was not “organic.” That’s they new rallying cry on this forum. They looked foolish calling the Pauline Mass “invalid” so their new buzz-term is “organic.”

Sorry guys, the Pauline Mass is valid and it is the OF of the Mass of the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church. There is nothing “better.”
 
Are we back to talking about the “validity” of sacraments or are we going to stick with organic development?

Anywho, it would seem to me that the Pauline Mass was based not on the Tridentine Mass from the Middle Ages, but sometime far older with its roots in the early church.

It’s laughable to see people feel they can dismiss the Pauline Mass because they feel its development was not “organic.” That’s they new rallying cry on this forum. They looked foolish calling the Pauline Mass “invalid” so their new buzz-term is “organic.”

Sorry guys, the Pauline Mass is valid and it is the OF of the Mass of the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church. There is nothing “better.”
Why do you discount everything in-between the present and the Roman Empire? I mean, after all, Catholicism did exist in those centuries.

Besides, they could make a few changes to the OF. Would that be so bad?
 
So very true…

I think most would suggest hand-holding is based on a Protestant practice and/or it takes the spotlight off the Eucharist as our means of unity (which it does not) so therefore it could NEVER be acceptable.

Such a position would be ridiculous of course but more than a few hold it.
I used to think “hand-holding” was a protestant tradition.

Now I know better. It was invented at Chuck-E-Cheese! j/k.🙂
 
At least some people have stopped erroneously screaming “the blah-blah-blah is INVALID!”

Now we hear in it’s place the blah-blah-blah is/is not ORGANIC/INORGANIC or NON-ORGANIC.
Amen. Things could be determined to be valid/invalid, and licit/illicit. Now, we have the totally subjective terms organic/inorganic for the dissenters to cling to…and the beat goes on…🤷
 
I used to think “hand-holding” was a protestant tradition.

Now I know better. It was invented at Chuck-E-Cheese! j/k.🙂
A reminder, hand-holding posts and threads are taboo right now. The mods locked a thread yesterday for this.
 
It’s laughable to see people feel they can dismiss the Pauline Mass because they feel its development was not “organic.” That’s they new rallying cry on this forum. They looked foolish calling the Pauline Mass “invalid” so their new buzz-term is “organic.”

Sorry guys, the Pauline Mass is valid and it is the OF of the Mass of the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church. There is nothing “better.”
DId you even bother to read the article by Cardinal Ratzinger?

“The pope is not an absolute monarch whose will is law; rather, he is the guardian of the authentic Tradition and, thereby, the premier guarantor of obedience. He cannot do as he likes, and he is thereby able to oppose those people who, for their part, want to do whatever comes into their head. His rule is not that of arbitrary power, but that of obedience in faith. That is why, with respect to the Liturgy, he has the task of a gardener, not that of a technician who builds new machines and throws the old ones on the junk-pile. The “rite”, that form of celebration and prayer which has ripened in the faith and the life of the Church, is a condensed form of living Tradition in which the sphere using that rite expresses the whole of its faith and its prayer, and thus at the same time the fellowship of generations one with another becomes something we can experience, fellowship with the people who pray before us and after us. Thus the rite is something of benefit that is given to the Church, a living form of paradosis, the handing-on of Tradition.”
 
DId you even bother to read the article by Cardinal Ratzinger?

“The pope is not an absolute monarch whose will is law; rather, he is the guardian of the authentic Tradition and, thereby, the premier guarantor of obedience. He cannot do as he likes, and he is thereby able to oppose those people who, for their part, want to do whatever comes into their head. His rule is not that of arbitrary power, but that of obedience in faith. That is why, with respect to the Liturgy, he has the task of a gardener, not that of a technician who builds new machines and throws the old ones on the junk-pile. The “rite”, that form of celebration and prayer which has ripened in the faith and the life of the Church, is a condensed form of living Tradition in which the sphere using that rite expresses the whole of its faith and its prayer, and thus at the same time the fellowship of generations one with another becomes something we can experience, fellowship with the people who pray before us and after us. Thus the rite is something of benefit that is given to the Church, a living form of paradosis, the handing-on of Tradition.”
So, to ditch the NO in favor of a return to some modified Old Latin Mass woudn’t be equally “inorganic” at this point? :rolleyes:
 
I’m sorry…but I just can’t understand why I constantly see unprovoked, inflammatory comments that have only one purpose…that is to attack people who hold fast to Traditions. God forbid you are a Catholic who actually starts your fast at Midnight before receiving Holy Communion…God forbid you are a little Nostalgic and prefer the Latin Mass, while in no way shape or form advocate the OF is invalid, nor do you try to interfere with the free practice of those who prefer it…God forbid you love to hear an Angelic Choir as opposed to a rock band…God forbid you actually believe in the True Presence enough to not want to have a EMHC touch the Blessed Sacrament with their hands and you want to kneel out of reverance when you are about to receive Him…God forbid you believe that Jesus chose only Men to be apostles, therefore only Men should be ordained as Priest. I could go on and on…All of these practices were never abolished by The Church…they embody what it means to be Catholic…and for you and others like you to attack us and lump us together with SSPV and the other groups who are actually in schism with the Church is sad…I can see how those who are traditionalist in full communion with Rome can be led astray by one of these sede groups because people like you, who are also Catholic are criticizing them for holding fast to certain traditions that were never abbrogated…and you hold this holier than thou personality because you have a propensity to enjoy clowns, contraception, women ordinations, rock bands, more EMHC’s than there are parishioners, and any other types of abuses you think come with the Spirit of Vatican II…it is easy for one of these groups to bring these confused Catholics over to their side by saying the Church as they know it has become apostate…because when they look at The Church, they see people like you and the others within it (even Bishops and priest) criticizing them for holding fast to these perfectly acceptable traditions, and they start to wonder of these groups like SSPV, etc. are actually right about The Catholic Church. It is sad, sad situation. Shame on you. All you traditionalists out there…don’t let your hearts be troubled. Keep in mind the words of Christ:

“Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you [falsely] because of me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven. Thus they persecuted the prophets who were before you.” Matthew 5:11-12
Organic/Inorganic…

Sounds like some “traditionalists” have found their new buzz word! A new universal justification for their personal views. I wonder if most even knew what it meant (outside of food) before they heard about it with regard to the EF?

Actually I still wonder if most know what it means now? And the actual value/non-value of organic development/growth?

“Inorganic” has replaced “invalid” yet is still misused.

One thing is for certain – it’s quickly becoming the most over-used and incorrectly used word on this forum…
 
“Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you [falsely] because of me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven. Thus they persecuted the prophets who were before you.” Matthew 5:11-12
That quote equally applies to us traditional Catholics who pray, pay, and obey…and have done so our entire lives.

The language of the Mass is not our call

The style of Communion reception is not our call

The type of music at Mass is not our call

Neither is the Church’s stance on ABC…it’s not our call…and the wife and I have six kids, two miscarriages, and a still-birth to show for our obedience…(pretty organic, dontcha think?)…and we haven’t spent our lives bellyachin’ about it…because it’s not our call.

We follow our faith and trust the Holy Spirit to lead God’s Church.
 
At least some people have stopped erroneously screaming “the blah-blah-blah is INVALID!”

Now we hear in it’s place the blah-blah-blah is/is not ORGANIC/INORGANIC or NON-ORGANIC.
Not everybody who has some…reservations about the current Mass has said it’s invalid. The only ones who hold to that view aren’t in communion with the Church, so please don’t lump all traditionalists in with those people.
 
Are we back to talking about the “validity” of sacraments or are we going to stick with organic development?
Anywho, it would seem to me that the Pauline Mass was based not on the Tridentine Mass from the Middle Ages, but sometime far older with its roots in the early church.
It’s laughable to see people feel they can dismiss the Pauline Mass because they feel its development was not “organic.” That’s they new rallying cry on this forum. They looked foolish calling the Pauline Mass “invalid” so their new buzz-term is “organic.”
Sorry guys, the Pauline Mass is valid and it is the OF of the Mass of the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church. There is nothing "better."
I’ll post this one more time, in the hope that Spiller and ethelzguy will, by some Miracle of God, finally get it.

Not everyone who loves the Old Mass thinks the New Mass is Invalid. In fact, most of the traditionalists, if not ALL, on this forum, do not think this because it is against forum rules to espouse this position. Those ‘traditionalists’ go to different threads where they can yap about it. We on this forum DO NOT THINK THE NOVUS ORDO IS INVALID AND WE NEVER HAVE!

We also don’t really care if other people prefer the Novus Ordo. If you want to keep going to them, fine. Let us, however, attend the Mass we love, as the POPE has deemed it another rite for use in the Latin Church.

The bolded statement above is just your opinion and can be completely disregarded.

I do not understand why you two come into the TRADITIONAL CATHOLIC Forum and just go about stirring us up. Does it amuse you? Do you honestly think you’re doing the work of the Church? What goes on in your mind when you think “I’ll go on to the forum devoted to the Latin Mass, to Fish Fridays, to Fasting from Midnight, and complain about it! Brilliant!”

Nobody is forcing you to read these threads.
 
I do not understand why you two come into the TRADITIONAL CATHOLIC Forum and just go about stirring us up. Does it amuse you? Do you honestly think you’re doing the work of the Church? What goes on in your mind when you think “I’ll go on to the forum devoted to the Latin Mass, to Fish Fridays, to Fasting from Midnight, and complain about it! Brilliant!”
Stirring it up? nah.

Defending my Church and my Faith against those who put themselves above what the Church has promulgated and taught since 1965?..you betcha.

Defending my Church and my Faith against those who deem themselves qualified to criticize everyone in the Church from Popes on down, who don’t share their beliefs?..you betcha.

I am hardly amused by those who think they’re more Catholic than the rest of us “bungling boobs” who trust in our Faith and follow our Church.

Traditional Catholicism
Forum for discussion of traditional Roman Catholic spirituality.


Doesn’t say anything about being a semi-private forum to denigrate the post-1965 Church.

I could ask the same question. What goes on in the minds of people who come here daily to criticize the Church? Are THEY really ‘doing the work of the Church’?

Traditional Roman Catholic spirituality encompasses obedience.

🙂
 
“I’ll go on to the forum devoted to the Latin Mass, to Fish Fridays, to Fasting from Midnight, and complain about it! Brilliant!”
Just for grins, can you direct me to any recent threads regarding Fasting or Fish?

For weeks now, I’ve practically begged people on this sub-forum to talk and share tradtional Catholic practices, and such.

But no, too much criticizing to do for any of that 👍

C’mon, I love my Church and her traditions. But every change that occurs doesn’t have to be considered as anti-traditional warfare.
 
That quote equally applies to us traditional Catholics who pray, pay, and obey…and have done so our entire lives.

The language of the Mass is not our call

The style of Communion reception is not our call

The type of music at Mass is not our call

Neither is the Church’s stance on ABC…it’s not our call…and the wife and I have six kids, two miscarriages, and a still-birth to show for our obedience…(pretty organic, dontcha think?)…and we haven’t spent our lives bellyachin’ about it…because it’s not our call.

We follow our faith and trust the Holy Spirit to lead God’s Church.
You are right. You cannot change the official language of the Mass. Only His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI can change it from Latin. (Technically the language of the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite is still Latin, even though most of the time it is celebrated in the vernacular. All of the vernacular versions of the Mass are translated from Latin.)

The pope is also the only person who can change the normative style of receiving Communion from being on the tongue to being in the hand. His Holiness is the only person who can make music other than Gregorian Chant have the pride of place in the Roman Rite, as well. (Pope Paul VI said in SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM that “The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.”)

You are also right about artificial birth control.

For once, I agree with your entire post! 😃
 
Organic/Inorganic…

Sounds like some “traditionalists” have found their new buzz word! A new universal justification for their personal views. I wonder if most even knew what it meant (outside of food) before they heard about it with regard to the EF?

Actually I still wonder if most know what it means now? And the actual value/non-value of organic development/growth?

“Inorganic” has replaced “invalid” yet is still misused.

One thing is for certain – it’s quickly becoming the most over-used and incorrectly used word on this forum…
Consider the words of Monsignor Gamber in The Reform of the Roman Liturgy
**“Obviously, the reformers wanted a completely new liturgy, a liturgy that differed from the traditional one in spirit as well as in form; and in no way a liturgy that represented what the Council Fathers had envisioned, i.e., a liturgy that would meet the pastoral needs of the faithful” (p. 100). **

Consider also, the fact that Cardinal Ratzinger wrote the preface to the French-language edition of The Reform of the Roman Liturgy, endorsing Monsignor Gamber’s work and commending the author to readers worldwide. It must surely be licit to hold this opinion, therefore, for otherwise the cardinal – now pope – would never have endorsed such a book or author.

Finally, consider the observations of Thomas E. Woods Jr.

Breaking with the Past

Ratzinger’s third major criticism of the liturgical reform was that whatever its virtues, the new missal, both in particular sections and in its entirety, leaves the impression of a rupture with the past, and can seem contrived. It resembles more a compilation by a committee of professors than the organic development of a truly living liturgy. “In the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy,” Ratzinger wrote. “We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries, and replaced it – as in a manufacturing process – with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product.”

Again Ratzinger faulted the liturgical books themselves, and not merely their clumsy implementation. “Even the official new books, which are excellent in many ways, occasionally show far too many signs of being drawn up by academics and reinforce the notion that a liturgical book can be ‘made’ like any other book.” The new missal "was published as if it were a book put together by professors, not a phase in a continual growth process. Such a thing never happened before. It is absolutely contrary to the laws of liturgical growth."

Ratzinger cited the reform of the liturgical calendar as an example of “the armchair strategy of academics, drawing up things on paper which, in fact, would presuppose years of organic growth.” This approach was “one of the weaknesses of the postconciliar liturgical reform.” Those responsible, he said, simply “did not realize how much the various annual feasts had influenced Christian people’s relation to time. In redistributing these established feasts throughout the year according to some historical arithmetic – inconsistently applied at that – they ignored a fundamental law of religious life.”

For decades, Catholics have been told that the new Mass is the traditional Mass – that its promulgation by Church authority made it ipso facto traditional. The chaplain at a well-known Catholic university recently rebuked traditionalist students who asked for the traditional Latin Mass with precisely this brand of legal positivism: the Novus Ordo is the traditional Mass, he insisted. Benedict (and great liturgists like Monsignor Gamber) will have none of this nonsense: The old rite is the old rite, the new rite is the new, and they are not and never have been the same.
Thomas E. Woods, Jr.
insidecatholic.com/Joomla/ind…1&limitstart=4
 
Count me among those who have noticed that the OP has not replied to calls directing his attention to writings of the Holy Father before his pontificate, concerning the organic development of liturgy. Apparently the Holy Father is also entrenched by those pesky “buzzwords”…

This is not the first time that the OP has made a series of snide remarks concerning the old rite. 🤷
 
Just for grins, can you direct me to any recent threads regarding Fasting or Fish?

For weeks now, I’ve practically begged people on this sub-forum to talk and share tradtional Catholic practices, and such.

But no, too much criticizing to do for any of that 👍

C’mon, I love my Church and her traditions. But every change that occurs doesn’t have to be considered as anti-traditional warfare.
I would be really offended if someone considered you a “bad Catholic.”

I never considered invalid the OF.

I admire you for having six young uns despite the sorrows that you’ve had to endure. It’s more than I can say for my own past.

Nowadays, it seems like the OF supporters are opposed to the EF. Used to, they would just be content to defend the OF against the EF, but now that the Motu Proprio is kicking in, it’s like they feel that they have to “save” the OF.

It aint goin anywhere. Besides, most of us would probably not be able to appreciate the EF without having grown up with the OF.

“Mutual Enrichment.”
 
Not everyone who loves the Old Mass thinks the New Mass is Invalid. In fact, most of the traditionalists, if not ALL, on this forum, do not think this because it is against forum rules to espouse this position. Those ‘traditionalists’ go to different threads where they can yap about it. We on this forum DO NOT THINK THE NOVUS ORDO IS INVALID AND WE NEVER HAVE!
Thank goodness for that! The “invalid” mantra has largely been replaced by the “organic” mantra for many and it’s use is just as inaccurate.
We also don’t really care if other people prefer the Novus Ordo. If you want to keep going to them, fine. Let us, however, attend the Mass we love, as the POPE has deemed it another rite for use in the Latin Church.
I couldn’t care less which Mass you attend. Don’t play games and suggest I do…
The bolded statement above is just your opinion and can be completely disregarded.
Alrighty. I’ll put them with your’s.
I do not understand why you two come into the TRADITIONAL CATHOLIC Forum and just go about stirring us up. Does it amuse you? Do you honestly think you’re doing the work of the Church? What goes on in your mind when you think “I’ll go on to the forum devoted to the Latin Mass, to Fish Fridays, to Fasting from Midnight, and complain about it! Brilliant!”
Because I am very much a traditionally-minded Catholic. I get sick and tired of seeing that mindset expressed here in terms of negativity, bigotry and/or ignorance.
Nobody is forcing you to read these threads.
I started this one. Same goes for you…
 
So, to ditch the NO in favor of a return to some modified Old Latin Mass woudn’t be equally “inorganic” at this point? :rolleyes:
Very clever. Introduce something new, and then claim it would be equally inorganic to go back to how things were before.
 
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