Organic/Inorganic -- Sheesh!

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Thank goodness for that! The “invalid” mantra has largely been replaced by the “organic” mantra for many and it’s use is just as inaccurate.
Are you of the opinion that there can be no objective comparison of the OF and the EF that results in one being a better presentation of the Catholic faith and a more reverent offering of the Most August Sacrifice of the Altar?
Because I am very much a traditionally-minded Catholic.
Would you consider the sanctus bells to be an “organic” development? I mean, one day, somebody decided to use them. Should the Church revert its liturgy back to a time before the bells? Would such a change necessarily be a wise one?
 
Are you of the opinion that there can be no objective comparison of the OF and the EF that results in one being a better presentation of the Catholic faith and a more reverent offering of the Most August Sacrifice of the Altar?

Would you consider the sanctus bells to be an “organic” development? I mean, one day, somebody decided to use them. Should the Church revert its liturgy back to a time before the bells? Would such a change necessarily be a wise one?
But back then, people could do things, and by the time it got anyone’s attention out there in the rest of the world, it was already “tradition” or “organic” or whatever you call it.

Nowadays with YouTube and CAF, NOTHING can be introduced in any Mass without there being a cybermob to protest.

ABUSE…ABUSE…ABUSE…

Really now…how is anything supposed to develop “organically” any more? Or, is that the point to begin with?
 
But back then, people could do things, and by the time it got anyone’s attention out there in the rest of the world, it was already “tradition” or “organic” or whatever you call it.

Nowadays with YouTube and CAF, NOTHING can be introduced in any Mass without there being a cybermob to protest.

ABUSE…ABUSE…ABUSE…

Really now…how is anything supposed to develop “organically” any more? Or, is that the point to begin with?
I imagine that the first time the priest turned his back to offer the Mass or the first time a bishop decreed that there would be no more Communion in the hand or laity taking the Eucharist home, save for immediate ministry to the sick, there was considerable grumbling about it, somewhere, albeit a little more discretely than is thought necessary in the old US of A these days. It is human nature.

As I posted earlier, I think organic development is the retention of those innovations that, wow, turned out to be an OK idea, after all. That doesn’t mean that there weren’t a lot of lousy ideas along the way, too.
 
I think that people screaming “ABUSE!” should be taken about as seriously as people who complain of chest pain. They’re not always right, but even if the complaint gets to be a habit, it is worthwhile to listen and investigate, in case they’re on to something this time. That “something” would be a very important something to catch right away.
 
I imagine that the first time the priest turned his back to offer the Mass or the first time a bishop decreed that there would be no more Communion in the hand or laity taking the Eucharist home, save for immediate ministry to the sick, there was considerable grumbling about it, somewhere, albeit a little more discretely than is thought necessary in the old US of A these days. It is human nature.

As I posted earlier, I think organic development is the retention of those innovations that, wow, turned out to be an OK idea, after all. That doesn’t mean that there weren’t a lot of lousy ideas along the way, too.
There are some things, though, that do seem like radical breaks. Like, for example, the lack of quality of the music, versus populum, people wearin tank tops, “symbolic” images of doves instead of the saints of old, etc…

The ministry to the sick, and a lot of “innovations,” are actually in the Bible, but I get your point.

The hymns, the eucharistic ministers, versus populum, the primacy of the vernacular and the distillation of the sacred, that’s where the break is.

There’s obviously a break somewhere, or there wouldn’t be two diametrically opposed factions in the Church.

Pax.
 
There’s obviously a break somewhere, or there wouldn’t be two diametrically opposed factions in the Church.
I think the factions pre-date the changes, unfortunately. With sufficient charity, I think the two forms of the Mass could remedy that, so that it was more like two different charisms.

I have an analogy I am fond of: we have two eyes in order to have depth perception. You can’t have that with one eye, set in a single place. Likewise, it takes two ears to discern which direction a sound is coming from. If the two vantage points for the one sense allow themselves to be reconciled by the Head, then the result is a deeper sensitivity than one vantage point can offer. If there is no reconcilliation, though, data coming in for the one sense from two vantage points just result in a big headache! 😃
 
DId you even bother to read the article by Cardinal Ratzinger?
The article addresses nothing but what is meant by the terms. Reading more of the article it mentions that Vatican II changes are not dealt with as that is where the book ends. If one were to turn to The Spirit of the Liturgy, then we see Cardinal Ratzinger defending the Mass changes of Vatican II as being organic. Interesting.

What does this mean? Nothing of substance. It still remains to be argued how organic is organic. After all, stagnation is also inorganic and deadly, to use the gardner analogy.
 
Are you of the opinion that there can be no objective comparison of the OF and the EF that results in one being a better presentation of the Catholic faith and a more reverent offering of the Most August Sacrifice of the Altar?
I think there certainly can be, but any comparison trying to determine which is better would ultimately be fruitless as both are God’s work.
Would you consider the sanctus bells to be an “organic” development? I mean, one day, somebody decided to use them. Should the Church revert its liturgy back to a time before the bells? Would such a change necessarily be a wise one?
That’s not my call – it’s up to God through His Church. What I do know is that it’s just as abusive if if the practice began without prior approval in 480 AD or 1969 AD.

Oh! you say! But bells have been part of the Mass for nearly 1500 years! OK, that’s nice – I’m more impressed that they are now approved for use by the Church, NOT because of their “organic introduction and/or development.”
 
Consider the words of Monsignor Gamber in The Reform of the Roman Liturgy
**“Obviously, the reformers wanted a completely new liturgy, a liturgy that differed from the traditional one in spirit as well as in form; and in no way a liturgy that represented what the Council Fathers had envisioned, i.e., a liturgy that would meet the pastoral needs of the faithful” (p. 100). **

Consider also, the fact that Cardinal Ratzinger wrote the preface to the French-language edition of The Reform of the Roman Liturgy, endorsing Monsignor Gamber’s work and commending the author to readers worldwide. It must surely be licit to hold this opinion, therefore, for otherwise the cardinal – now pope – would never have endorsed such a book or author.

Finally, consider the observations of Thomas E. Woods Jr.

Breaking with the Past

Ratzinger’s third major criticism of the liturgical reform was that whatever its virtues, the new missal, both in particular sections and in its entirety, leaves the impression of a rupture with the past, and can seem contrived. It resembles more a compilation by a committee of professors than the organic development of a truly living liturgy. “In the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy,” Ratzinger wrote. “We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries, and replaced it – as in a manufacturing process – with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product.”

Again Ratzinger faulted the liturgical books themselves, and not merely their clumsy implementation. “Even the official new books, which are excellent in many ways, occasionally show far too many signs of being drawn up by academics and reinforce the notion that a liturgical book can be ‘made’ like any other book.” The new missal "was published as if it were a book put together by professors, not a phase in a continual growth process. Such a thing never happened before. It is absolutely contrary to the laws of liturgical growth."

Ratzinger cited the reform of the liturgical calendar as an example of “the armchair strategy of academics, drawing up things on paper which, in fact, would presuppose years of organic growth.” This approach was “one of the weaknesses of the postconciliar liturgical reform.” Those responsible, he said, simply “did not realize how much the various annual feasts had influenced Christian people’s relation to time. In redistributing these established feasts throughout the year according to some historical arithmetic – inconsistently applied at that – they ignored a fundamental law of religious life.”

For decades, Catholics have been told that the new Mass is the traditional Mass – that its promulgation by Church authority made it ipso facto traditional. The chaplain at a well-known Catholic university recently rebuked traditionalist students who asked for the traditional Latin Mass with precisely this brand of legal positivism: the Novus Ordo is the traditional Mass, he insisted. Benedict (and great liturgists like Monsignor Gamber) will have none of this nonsense: The old rite is the old rite, the new rite is the new, and they are not and never have been the same.
Thomas E. Woods, Jr.
insidecatholic.com/Joomla/ind…1&limitstart=4
Also consider the fact that the Pauline Mass is the approved OF of the Mass for the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church. That pretty much sums it up.
 
I think the factions pre-date the changes, unfortunately. With sufficient charity, I think the two forms of the Mass could remedy that, so that it was more like two different charisms.

I have an analogy I am fond of: we have two eyes in order to have depth perception. You can’t have that with one eye, set in a single place. Likewise, it takes two ears to discern which direction a sound is coming from. If the two vantage points for the one sense allow themselves to be reconciled by the Head, then the result is a deeper sensitivity than one vantage point can offer. If there is no reconcilliation, though, data coming in for the one sense from two vantage points just result in a big headache! 😃
So true.

Our perceptions would be a lot different otherwise.
 
Also consider the fact that the Pauline Mass is the approved OF of the Mass for the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church. That pretty much sums it up.
I don’t recall you mentioning this in your original post, instead you had some rather harsh words for traditionalits:
Sounds like some “traditionalists” have found their new buzz word! A new universal justification for their personal views. I wonder if most even knew what it meant (outside of food) before they heard about it with regard to the EF?
It seems as though Cardinal Ratzinger was also concerned about the organic development of the liturgy, as my quotes have illustrated.
 
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