orgins of witchcraft

[KarenNC]

**As for the Flood narrative, are you aware that HMC does not teach that Genesis is literal? **

I am afraid that you will need to clarify the acronym HMC for me. Is it possibly "Holy Mother Church?’ It may help you to remember that, while I have read a fair bit about Catholicism and known many Catholics, I have never been one and may not know all the Catholic-specific shorthand (though this forum is widening that knowledge )

You will note that I asked “am I correct…?” I have heard the specific argument I described many times from Christians who are strict literalists. I know that some Christians believe that Genesis is literal, some do not. There are plenty on this forum that have argued the literal interpretation of much of the Christian Bible. I have met (either IRL or online) many Catholics (and other Christians) on both sides of the issue. That is why I asked if you did as a point of clarification. Such a literalist view seemed at odds with your other posts, so I wanted to be sure I did not misunderstand.

** And my faith has not been shaken. My faith, if anything, has been confirmed by my anthropology and history. **

Good. Ideally that is what happens to all of us.

It is unfortunate in my opinion that there are so many Christians ** and** followers of various Neopagn religions who are raised or taught with such blinders to the rest of history that when they do encounter such, it causes an intense (and in my mind wholly preventable) crisis of faith. It is an issue for the Neopagan who is confronted with the actual scholarship on the witch hunts of history (rather than the “burning times” mythos) as for the Christian who, believing that Christianity is absolutely unique in having a dying and rising deity or flood myth, to discover that other cultures had them as well.

**And you are trying to ressurect a long dead religion which has no connection with the past - no priesthood for over a thousand years. **

I will agree there has been no priesthood, but I would hardly say that my religion has no connection to the past. Remember that I am the one who follows a Hellenic religion. It is not identical to Wicca or to many other religions that fall under the umbrella of Neopaganism. If Christian worship were to lapse for a specific period of time, would your God cease to exist or be worthy of worship?

As to other arguments, not necessarily yours, that I am not worshipping the Gods in the same way that the ancient Greeks did, the idea of a new relationship with deity should not be a foreign one to Christians. The basis for Christianity is that your God made a significantly different covenant, with different expectations, ways of worship, etc than He did with the Jews.

** Frankly, y’all, if I were so inclined, I’d have better results using H.P. Lovecraft and worshiping Cthulhu.**

Nah, too many tentacles

Seriously, I think that most people would be willing to admit that there is a bit of difference in worshipping Gods that were worshipped actively for many centuries, and whose images and stories have been very powerful and present in our culture throughout the last two millenia despite that lack of active worship, with a fictional character in a book by a 20th century author of “weird fiction” that did not claim to be other than such.

** What is the difference between neopaginism and Scientology? Tell me that.**

Money?

Seriously, which particular Neopagan religion would you like for me to use as a comparison? There are some that I can discuss in an informed manner and some I cannot. As for Scientology, I have only a passing acquaintance with it, through my husband’s grandmother. The teachings I have encountered have not appealed sufficiently to me that I felt a need to really investigate further, so I may not be the best one to make an informed comparison.

 

[KarenNC]

It’s best to hit the “Preview Post” button once you’ve done this, especially the first few times, to be sure that you made the beginning and ending tags (the bits in brackets) agree with each other (that you don’t have a b at one end and a quote at the other). If they don’t agree it won’t look right.

Case in point. I did not do preview post, though, to be honest, I don’t know why the forum recognized that the quotation marks around the code in the first paragraph meant “this is to be shown, not actual code,” but didn’t in the next paragraph.

At any rate, for italics, replace the “b” with “i”

 

[KarenNC]

I am a medievalist. Yes, I really do have swords and armor. I really am a calligrapher. I really have sung in Latin in both Gregorian Chant and sacred polyphony. I am the Catholic version of our pagan friends. I have been there and done that in terms of recreating the Middle Ages as they ought to have been.

Unfortunately, I also know full well that the Middle Ages were not as they ought to have been and therein lies my problems with my neopagan friends.

Actually, this appears to make some inaccurate assumptions about the Neopagan community at large. This is not terribly surprising if your primary contact with Neopagans has been through the SCA. Those who are active in the SCA are going to be the ones who are also interested in the Middle Ages, just as folks you meet in a Civil War Re-enactment group are likely to share attitudes regardless of religion.

There is a wide Neopagan community out there that has minimal interest in the Middle Ages or Ren Faires. They are focused on practicing their modern religion in the context of their modern lives. They realize fully that those societies who also worshipped their Gods did so in a way that modern society would not find acceptable, desirable or legal. They have read some history, and don’t feel doomed to repeat it.

To paraphrase “try talking to a non-SCAdian Neopagan.”

 

[brotherhrolf]

Great posts, Karen. Thanks for the clarification. I’m glad to see that you’ve done far more reading than just the usual Llewellyn publications. I highly recommend the works of Joseph Campbell - I believe he’ll be right up your alley.

amazon.com/s/ref=sr_pg_3/104-5678495-3447124?ie=UTF8&keywords=joseph%20campbell&rh=n%3A1000%2Ck%3Ajoseph%20campbell&page=3

His book the Masks of God describes the development of religion across the world and is really excellent. It might interest you to know that Campbell had a huge influence on George Lucas and the development of “the force”. DW uses his PBS series on mythology in her World Literature classes.
It comes as a huge surprise to some of her students who have only been exposed to fundamentalist Christianity.

 

[KarenNC]

Great posts, Karen. Thanks for the clarification.

No problem. We all come to conversations with preconceived ideas of the other based on our experiences. The value of such fora is that we have an opportunity to test those ideas against a broader spectrum of reality than may be possible IRL.

** I’m glad to see that you’ve done far more reading than just the usual Llewellyn publications. I highly recommend the works of Joseph Campbell - I believe he’ll be right up your alley.**

Thanks. I have read “Masks of God,” “Hero with a Thousand Faces,” and “The Power of Myth” as well as seen the Bill Moyers interviews.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, way too much of the stuff published by Llewellyn is, simply put, rubbish with the goal of making money off of something popular or written by folks who appear to have read nothing other than other Llewellyn publications. There are some exceptions, thankfully, and there has recently begun to be more serious stuff written that goes beyond “Wicca 101” or “How to Cast Spells to Find Love/get better grades.” To be fair, I would classify a lot of stuff sold under the label of Christianity to fall into the same category. Wander into any Christian bookstore. One has to apply critical thinking skills to any writing.

Also, it doesn’t help that the material aimed at a general audience (vs. an academic one) in any group tends to become increasingly self-referential over time. That means that it is very hard for new ideas and scholarship to “trickle down” to the general “lay” audience, if you will, and for such an audience to even be aware that some ideas or teachings may be in dispute in academic circles because of new information.

It might interest you to know that Campbell had a huge influence on George Lucas and the development of “the force”. DW uses his PBS series on mythology in her World Literature classes. It comes as a huge surprise to some of her students who have only been exposed to fundamentalist Christianity.

Actually, I did know that. The study of myth is, in my opinion, a key to understanding so much about human society. Myth is certainly not only the province of religion. Understanding theories of the development and role of myth can help provide insights into politics, the media, writers of history, etc. Myth (and I do include the Christian mythos here, not to lessen it, but to acknowledge the powerful role it plays) shapes and is shaped by our experiences, and has a profound effect on the way in which we interpret those experiences. Myth endures not because it was a “fairy story” from a time when people were too ignorant to know any better but because it has something profound to say to humans and the human condition.

 

[KarenNC]

There is a wide Neopagan community out there that has minimal interest in the Middle Ages or Ren Faires. They are focused on practicing their modern religion in the context of their modern lives. They realize fully that those societies who also worshipped their Gods did so in a way that modern society would not find acceptable, desirable or legal. They have read some history, and don’t feel doomed to repeat it.

To clarify, this was not as clearly stated as it might have been. My meaning was:

There are many more facets to the Neopagan community than one will find at an SCA event, a Renn Faire, a Neopagan festival, a gaming convention, a Democratic or Republican rally, a meeting of the Sierra Club, the PTA of the local school, your homeowners’ association or any given group. Neopagans can be found in all walks of life, all ages, and with a very wide variety of political, social and environmental issues as well as a wide variety of hobbies and interests. They have a wide varitey of educational levels and areas of academic interest. You may well never know that given people follow a Neopagan religion, unless it is particularly relevant to the specific situation in which you meet them.

There is a large portion of the Neopagan community that does understand (and cares about) the history of their various religions. They have read history, sometimes extensively. They know that in the past people who have followed the same Gods have done revolting, heinous things by modern standards. Honest members of any religion that existed in such an age will admit the same. They do not feel bound to replicate those actions to be “authentic” any more than Christians do.

These folks are also not necessarily the same ones that feel they must advertise their religion to the entire world, any more than most Christians feel it is necessary to walk up to every clerk in the store and say, “Hi, I’m Joe. I’m a Latin Rite Catholic. How much are the tomatoes?” or wear a crucifix the size of a lawn ornament, lest anyone mistake them for something else.

They do put just as much energy, thought and critical analysis into their religion as any Jesuit. It is a real, full time religion, that affects every area of their lives, just like Christianity does for most Christians. It isn’t something to be put on for a weekend event (and, yes, I do know how consuming a hobby the SCA can become ).

That there are those people in any religion who are not as informed (or even interested) in the finer points of theological debate or historical scholarship does not mean that they are any less sincere in their belief or that their religion is not valid. I do not think that one would judge the sincerity of a Catholic’s belief (or the validity of Christianity) by giving pop quizzes on such topics to see if they had read the “right” scholars or even if they were literate. Not even all the saints of the Catholic Church were scholars, theologians or historians, and I don’t think anyone would question the sincerity of their belief in their religion.

 

[pagan_soul]

Hello. I’m rather late to this thread.

My understanding of witchcraft is that it is seperate from religion.It is a ‘skillset’ rather then a belief system. Using symbols, phrases, offerings in order to get something is a broad definition of witchcraft. Doing almost anything to control your future (tarot, good luck charm, protective necklace) is another broad definition. You could be a witch and perform rituals invoking no gods although its more likely that you invoke something, even if its yourself. And my personal favorite, you can be called a witch when things go wrong in a community and the people see you as a little weird.

Actually I’m a little leary on the whole usage of the word witch personally. When I ask someone what religion they are, and they say that they are a witch, its not telling me anything…other then they enjoy the shock factor. Its like asking someone what their favorite restuarant is and having them answer “I like eating with chopsticks”.

Just my thoughts.

 

[KarenNC]

Maybe it’s for a different thread, but how have you seen/experienced your reality of these gods and how does it affect your life. Some specifics would be nice.

A very good question. Nothing huge or spectacular, as I would expect would be true for most followers of any religion. If I trotted out big “miracles” I would expect anyone to be very skeptical. Most religious experiences depend on interpretation and worldview, in my opinion. Are we open to seeing the subtle messages? I know that I am more aware of what goes on around me in the environment, and see connections I never did before.

My religion affects my life in challenging me to follow the Nine Virtues ( chronarchy.com/mjournal/virtues/.
) and to accept responsibility for my own actions and decisions.

I know that I find a sense of rightness and peace in pouring libations. I experienced this even as a 10 year old who was absolutely immersed in very Calvinist Christianity. I made offerings to the gods and landspirits on my own–flowers, etc–without any prompting from anyone and privately. It seemed very natural and right to do so. I did not mistake that these were offerings to Jesus or angels. I struggled with the fact that I could not be an orthodox Christian (small o) for another 20 years.

A couple of incidents that have occurred–at the beach my then 3 yo participated in our pouring libations to Poseidon. Later, unprompted, she decided to build an altar to Athena in the grass at the edge of the dunes, piling up some pretty shells and things. Shortly after this, a wave washed up, tumbling a black shell with a hole in it just right for stringing on a necklace. We told her we would have to find some cording when we went out shopping. On the way back to the hotel we passed the Athena altar, in front of it lay a length of black cording, exactly the right size and diameter for the necklace. It had not been there when we passed that spot an hour or so before.

We recently set out on a long trip in the car. It is our usual practice to pour a libation to Hermes in such situations, asking for protection. We had a couple of errands to run including returning books to the library. Nothing seemed to go right on this morning, delays abounding. When we finally arrived at the library, my daughter said she was hungry, so my husband went to get one of the apples he had packed an hour previously. The first one had a big rotten spot on it. So did the second. The third dropped out of his hand and rolled, slightly uphill, to the exact center of the car. We were both incredibly frustrated, then I asked if we had remembered our libation. No, we had not, and immediately went to do so. Things went smoothly after that.

 

[gallo]

KarenNC,
So do you see these gods such as Poseidon and Athena as actual independent beings or are they a personified representation of the virtues you speak of?

Just speculation, but in reference to the event at the beach with your daughter: if you had stuck with your “Calvinist Christianity”, embraced it whole heartedly, raised a family, and come upon this exact situation at this exact same time except instead of faith in your gods there would have been faith in the Christ and instead of an altar to athena it would have been a cross or something, would you believe that the outcome have been the same? (with the shell and cord. Also pardon the run-ons, I never was very grammatically correct.)

 

[Contarini]

If Christian worship were to lapse for a specific period of time, would your God cease to exist or be worthy of worship?

If Christianity were to lapse for five minutes, it would prove itself to be false. Historical continuity is essential to [orthodox] Christianity.

From my perspective, neopaganism’s attitude to history is oddly similar to that of Protestant fundamentalists. Either an imaginary “Trail of Blood” or a bold denial of any need for continuity.

In my opinion, Catholicism and Orthodoxy (arguably even Protestantism) have far more true continuity with ancient paganism than any modern reconstruction could possibly have.

Edwin

 

[KarenNC]

**From my perspective, neopaganism’s attitude to history is oddly similar to that of Protestant fundamentalists. Either an imaginary “Trail of Blood” or a bold denial of any need for continuity. **

I don’t find it odd at all. Modern Neopaganism, and Wicca in particular, grew out of a social milieu that was originally Anglican (Britain), then Protestant (America, where it mixed with radical feminism, and was transported back to Britain to change the shape of Wicca there). Many of the concepts of Neopaganism owe a direct debt to Protestant thought–things like the priesthood of all believers, which was not present in any of the ancient cultures of which I am aware. As Wicca is the largest Neopagan religion, it is not surprising that the forces that shaped it have also influenced other Neopagan religions that followed.

The very lack of continuity also contributes. These are modern religions, whose worshippers have been formed and shaped in large part by the ideals and worldview of a primarily Protestant society. Christianity was as much shaped by the culture and worldview of its early worshippers, owing as much to Hellenic thought and worldview rather than being a straightforward continuation of the Judaism from which it sprang.

**In my opinion, Catholicism and Orthodoxy (arguably even Protestantism) have far more true continuity with ancient paganism than any modern reconstruction could possibly have.

---

You have a very good point. I have often argued that Christianity is a Hellenic mystery religion with the order turned inside out, trying to explain very esoteric concepts to the multitudes rather than the carefully prepared initiated elite.**

 

[KarenNC]

So do you see these gods such as Poseidon and Athena as actual independent beings or are they a personified representation of the virtues you speak of?

I experience them as distinct, not as archetypes or aspects of an ultimate God or Goddess (as many Neopagan traditions would describe them). They do, however, definitely have aspects that include something that might be termed “personified representations of the virtues” as in Zeus being identified with the generative force and Hera with the bonds of commitment, so that their stories can be seen on one level as the struggle of humanity between these two opposing forces.

Ultimately, I don’t know that we can know completely. We can only go on experience guided by the path markers left by those who have come before.

**Just speculation, but in reference to the event at the beach with your daughter: if you had stuck with your “Calvinist Christianity”, embraced it whole heartedly, raised a family, and come upon this exact situation at this exact same time except instead of faith in your gods there would have been faith in the Christ and instead of an altar to athena it would have been a cross or something, would you believe that the outcome have been the same? **

Well, hard to say, because if I had been an orthodox Christian, I would never have been in the position of pouring libations, etc It was only our specific religious orientation that led to the situation occurring.

To answer what I think is your root question, yes, I do believe that religoius worldview and orientation make a tremendous difference in the way in which a person interprets things in their environment and events that occur, as I said at the beginning of that post.