Oriental (and Eastern) CCs and ad orientem

[malphono]

The issue of ad orientem and versus populum in the Oriental CCs (mainly but not exclusively in the US) has come up from time to time in a variety of threads, but after a discussion I had yesterday (which I’m not going into here), I decided that it’s time for a separate thread about it. (I wanted to do this as a poll, but it seems to me the number of options involved gets a little out of hand, so thread it is.)

First off, In case anyone cares and either doesn’t know or hasn’t figured it out, I am of the ad orientem school. Always have been, always will be, and I sincerely believe it is an important issue.

That said, I know that the Maronites are tainted with versus populum, even in the Patriarchal Territories. No, it is NOT a Synodal requirement: ad orientem remains an option and is actually used in certain places outside the US. (While I have not seen it with my own eyes, there are, (or so I am told), a few “maverick priests” in the US who use ad orientem, at least when the bishop is not around.)

I have, as well, witnessed one case of the Syriac qourobo done versus populum (in the US) but I don’t know if that was an anomaly or if it’s a common practice. Also, from what I understand, the Chaldeans (ublished photos of Christmas from Iraq showed the Alatrs ad orientem, but what about outside Iraq?) and Syro-Malabars (in the US, at least) are afflicted in way similar to the Maronites, but I really do not know to what extent that’s true. And I am totally unaware of what is done among the Armenians.

What I’m looking for here is some feed back from those who frequent Chaldean, Syro-Malabar, Syriac, Maronite, and Armenian CC churches as to which posture is used and where the church is located. (I have no intention of being intrusive, so the name of the eparchy and the country is quite enough).

BTW, those who frequent Eastern CCs and have an ad orientem vs* versus populum* tale, are welcome to share it here too.

 

[malphono]

BUMP

 

[jimmy]

Hi malphono. My parish in the Eparchy of Brooklyn says the liturgy ad populum.

One of my friends is a Chaldean. He mentioned that his church used to be ad populum until the bishop came. The bishop came and reorganized things so that he could say the liturgy ad orientem. Ever since then they have had ad orientem liturgy.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

My Melkite liturgy is ad orientem. When the Chaldeans rented space from us for their liturgy it, too, was ad orientem. Local Maronites are, as you have noted, ad populum.

Deacon Ed

 

[wynd]

The only Eastern Catholic church I’ve ever been to (Ruthenian) was ad orientem for everything.

 

[bpbasilphx]

There is one place in the Orthodox world where the Divine Liturgy is celebrated en face–the Anastasis in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.

 

[JMJ_coder]

The Romanian Catholic Church I attend sometimes, Father prays at the altar ad orientem.

The same thing with the Maronite Shrine I sometimes frequent - Monsignor said he had a looooooooong discussion with his Bishop about it.

 

[malphono]

The Romanian Catholic Church I attend sometimes, Father prays at the altar ad orientem.

The same thing with the Maronite Shrine I sometimes frequent - Monsignor said he had a looooooooong discussion with his Bishop about it.

I’m not at all surprised about the Romanians. I only recall hearing once some 35 years ago about a Byzantine Liturgy versus populum. Interestingly enough, it was Ruthenian. I also recall that the VG of Passaic at the time (with whom I was acquainted) did not receive that news well.

And now I can say, ah!!! … so the rumors about Maronite ad orientem are true! I’m quite sure that “Msgr S” had more than a “looooooooong discussion” with the bishop. Reading between the lines, I gather that Youngstown proper does not use the ad orientem posture.

Shame the qourbono is not offered … well, never mind that now. At least the ad orientem at the Shrine is a start. It really does make a big difference.

I wonder if there are any other such beacons of hope out there?

 

[JMJ_coder]

And now I can say, ah!!! … so the rumors about Maronite ad orientem are true! I’m quite sure that “Msgr S” had more than a “looooooooong discussion” with the bishop.

Yup!

Reading between the lines, I gather that Youngstown proper does not use the ad orientem posture.

Funny, but I’ve never been to Liturgy at Saint Maron’s (I don’t know why not ) – though I’ve been there for other occasions. Now you got me thinking – I need to stop by soon and pay Father Gary a visit.

But, if the Liturgy he celebrated at Saint Paul’s for the shut-ins (you can see it on YouTube) is any indication, then he does celebrate ad populum.

 

[malphono]

Hi malphono. My parish in the Eparchy of Brooklyn says the liturgy ad populum.

One of my friends is a Chaldean. He mentioned that his church used to be ad populum until the bishop came. The bishop came and reorganized things so that he could say the liturgy ad orientem. Ever since then they have had ad orientem liturgy.

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut, Jimmy. It is most encouraging to hear that one of the Chaldean bishops used the ad orientem posture for qourbana on his own volition, and even more so that the local parish continues to do it that way. I wonder if both bishops have the same outlook?

Big shame we don’t similar reports from the Maronites. Reminds me of Mad Magazine’s “Things We’d Like to See” from many years ago.

 

[malphono]

My Melkite liturgy is ad orientem. When the Chaldeans rented space from us for their liturgy it, too, was ad orientem. Local Maronites are, as you have noted, ad populum.

Deacon Ed

Thank you for the (name removed by moderator)ut.

Question: would the layout in your Melkite church support versus populum in any case? As I recall, in Byzantine churches the tabernacle is often large and sits in the middle of the Altar. Which, of course, would interfere nicely with any attempt at versus populum.

From your wording, I assume that the Chaldeans now have their own place. Any idea what they do there?

 

[bpbasilphx]

The rubrics for the Reformed Chaldean Quorbono can be found at

kaldu.org

It calls for at least the Anaphora to be recited facing east, though when I visited the local Chaldean Church (before the Revised liturgy was promulgated), the priest faced west.

 

[ronyodish]

Hi,

For Chaldeans in the US, there was only one eparchy, St. Thomas, for both the Eastern and Western States, under HE Mar Ibrahim Ibrahim. The liturgy was served versus populum.

When Father Sarhad Jammo was elevated to the Episcopacy, a new eparchy, St. Peter, was erected for the Western States. This Bishop has his Ph.D. on the Chaldean liturgy. He brought back the ancient ad orientem posture, as well as, some other liturgical stuff (ex. sanctuary veil, etc.).

I’ve seen both bishops serve the liturgy in their own cathedrals. HE Mar Ibrahim continues to serve versus populum, and HE Mar Sarhad continues to serve ad orientem.

I remember the day when HE Mar Sarhad first served the ad orientem liturgy at St. Peter’s in San Diego. The liturgical items on the altar were already preset by the nuns in the versus populum posture, but he started to rearrange them as the liturgy was beginning (turning the liturgical text around from one side of the altar to the other, etc.). I could notice the “surprise” or perhaps “confusion” on the face of the subdeacons seeing their bishop facing the other way. I was so excited to see the new bishop doing this, but I kept myself from jumping up and down lest I cause a distraction in the liturgy!

God bless,

Rony

 

[malphono]

The rubrics for the Reformed Chaldean Quorbono can be found at

kaldu.org

It calls for at least the Anaphora to be recited facing east, though when I visited the local Chaldean Church (before the Revised liturgy was promulgated), the priest faced west.

Thank you that link. I had a quick read and I must say it’s quite impressive. The bishop’s essay is actually quite good.

 

[malphono]

Hi,

For Chaldeans in the US, there was only one eparchy, St. Thomas, for both the Eastern and Western States, under HE Mar Ibrahim Ibrahim. The liturgy was served versus populum.

When Father Sarhad Jammo was elevated to the Episcopacy, a new eparchy, St. Peter, was erected for the Western States. This Bishop has his Ph.D. on the Chaldean liturgy. He brought back the ancient ad orientem posture, as well as, some other liturgical stuff (ex. sanctuary veil, etc.).

I’ve seen both bishops serve the liturgy in their own cathedrals. HE Mar Ibrahim continues to serve versus populum, and HE Mar Sarhad continues to serve ad orientem.

I had a read through the site that bpbasilphx kindly provided and was quite impressed. From what I’ve read, Mar Sarhad really does seem know what he’s talking about in matters liturgical, and that is so refreshing.

ronyodish:

I remember the day when HE Mar Sarhad first served the ad orientem liturgy at St. Peter’s in San Diego. The liturgical items on the altar were already preset by the nuns in the versus populum posture, but he started to rearrange them as the liturgy was beginning (turning the liturgical text around from one side of the altar to the other, etc.). I could notice the “surprise” or perhaps “confusion” on the face of the subdeacons seeing their bishop facing the other way. I was so excited to see the new bishop doing this, but I kept myself from jumping up and down lest I cause a distraction in the liturgy!

Oh yeah, I know just what you mean: I would have had to stop myself from doing a dabkeh in the aisles. and I can just imagine the faces on the nuns

The prescription for ad orientem is wonderful, and so too is the restoration of the veil. (That one almost knocked my socks off!) And I was quite surprised (pleasantly so!) that the filioque was removed after having been imposed for so many years. Apparently there is hope! Too bad it doesn’t extend to Bkérké.

 

[Formosus]

I have been to an ad orientem Maronite Qurbono before, the priest even used leavened bread for it rather then the unleavened wafers. He is quite a syriacophile when it comes to the Qurbono which is probably an attitude that all Maronite priests should take with the Liturgy, IMO.

 

[malphono]

I have been to an ad orientem Maronite Qurbono before, the priest even used leavened bread for it rather then the unleavened wafers. He is quite a syriacophile when it comes to the Qurbono which is probably an attitude that all Maronite priests should take with the Liturgy, IMO.

So we have another sighting of the elusive Maronite ad orientem usage. It’s interesting that the rumors I’ve heard seem to be true. Too bad neither of the bishops in the US is on board with it. (Bishops in the Patriarchal Territories are mixed, although the majority is clearly in the versus populum camp. I don’t know about Montréal, Mexico, Australia, South America, etc.)

A handful of Maronite clergy in the US have some foundation in correct Syro-Maronite liturgical practices, but they seem to be up against the episcopal wall. There are, as well, some Maronite clergy in this country who follow what I will call a pseudo-Syriac tradition (it’s what I’ll call a “domestic brew” and I won’t go into it here), and those I neither support nor respect.

The leavened vs unleavened bread argument has two sides in the Maronite tradition. Both have merit, and I won’t gainsay either. That said, while Latin-style wafers are certainly convenient, I’m not a fan of that particular practice. Unleavened bread does not have to be in the form of a wafer. But that’s a whole discussion in itself best left for another thread and another time.

 

[Diak]

In my own particular ritual Church (UGCC) all of the liturgical books and the Ordo are very clear about ad orientem.

On the other hand, in the last 20 years I have never seen or heard of a Maronite Quorbono that was not ad populum or one that used leavened bread. I still remeber the use of Latin vestments at a few as well.

 

[ronyodish]

Oh yeah, I know just what you mean: I would have had to stop myself from doing a dabkeh in the aisles. and I can just imagine the faces on the nuns

Haha

God bless,

Rony

P.S. For those reading this thread who are unfamiliar with middle eastern lingo, and wondering what a dabkeh is, read here.