Oriental, Assyrian and Byzantine understandings of "Age of Reason"

[Sophronius]

What are the respective understandings of the Assyrian, Oriental and Byzantine traditions of the term “Age of Reason” as is employed by the Latin Church regarding the reception of the different Holy Mysteries.

I was told by an Orthodoxy that none of the Holy Mysteries REALLY need a person to comprehend them, since they are Holy Mysteries, and we can only scratch the surface of these Mysteries in this life.

 

[SyroMalankara]

The Eastern Churches ideally give the Holy Mysteries at baptism, so there is no “Age of Reason” argument, except for Confession. When sin is recognized, confess.

 

[Sophronius]

This conversation was in response to that.

I asked what about for someone who is comatose or unconscious. Can their sins be absolved, and he related a story about a man in Greece who was unresponsive and the priest absolved him of his sins saying he was in the mercy of God and all we could do is trust in that.

And I was also told, Saint Basil was ordained against his will when he was young and turned out to be one of the Holy Hierarchs.

 

[malphono]

In traditional practice (which is not necessarily the way it’s done now), all the named Churches administer Baptism, Chrismation, and Eucharist even to infants. A baptized infant would also be able to receive the Anointing of the Sick. That leaves 3: Penance, by its very nature, applies only to those who are of an age to actually know right-from-wrong, to put it in the simplest terms. That would be around age 7 I would guess. The remaining two, Martimony & Holy Orders, obviously have more restrictions.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I’m sure hospital chaplains come across this very often. All they can do is absolve and entrust them to God’s mercy.

 

[Sophronius]

So then if most of the Holy Mysteries can be given and received without “knowing” what they are.

So is the Holy Mystery of Confession more the Holy Mystery of Reconciliation or Absolution if the action is Reconciliation to God, through his unfathomable mercy?

And the action amongst some orthodox where the confession of sins may be done before a non priest, and then approach a priest and receive absolution. Would this mean, confession of sins is not an absolute requirement to receive the Holy Mystery?

 

[Zekariya]

So then if most of the Holy Mysteries can be given and received without “knowing” what they are.

So is the Holy Mystery of Confession more the Holy Mystery of Reconciliation or Absolution if the action is Reconciliation to God, through his unfathomable mercy?

And the action amongst some orthodox where the confession of sins may be done before a non priest, and then approach a priest and receive absolution. Would this mean, confession of sins is not an absolute requirement to receive the Holy Mystery?

The Latins allow a foreign penitent to confess to a translator and then the translator confesses to the priest. the Priest, then, give the penitent absolution. Is this not similar?

 

[Aramis]

The Latins allow a foreign penitent to confess to a translator and then the translator confesses to the priest. the Priest, then, give the penitent absolution. Is this not similar?

It is not too dissimilar to a hierodeacon being permitted to hear the confession and the hieromonk granting the absolution… which is not common, but was noted by Fr. Schmemman as part of Byzantine Orthodox tradition.

 

[dzheremi]

In traditional practice (which is not necessarily the way it’s done now), all the named Churches administer Baptism, Chrismation, and Eucharist even to infants.

All three occur in the Coptic Orthodox Church…even on the same day.

Penance, by its very nature, applies only to those who are of an age to actually know right-from-wrong, to put it in the simplest terms. That would be around age 7 I would guess.

I’ve never seen any sort of guideline on this (then again, I’ve never asked, not being in the least bit reasonable myself), but if I had to guess based on the approach to the rest of the faith, I would think that most Oriental Orthodox would agree with the first sentence but not necessarily the second. Not in a church blessed with the likes of St. Abanoub, anyway.

 

[malphono]

I’ve never seen any sort of guideline on this (then again, I’ve never asked, not being in the least bit reasonable myself), but if I had to guess based on the approach to the rest of the faith, I would think that most Oriental Orthodox would agree with the first sentence but not necessarily the second. Not in a church blessed with the likes of St. Abanoub, anyway.

Wasn’t St. Abanoub about 12 years old when martyred?

 

[dzheremi]

Yes. Point is to be willingly martyred at 12 and not willingly absolved at 6 (if there should be some case where a child would go to confession then; again, I haven’t asked about this) seems a little odd. Then again, we let a little blindfolded kid pick our Pope, so maybe I should shut up about what strikes me as odd in other churches.

 

[malphono]

Yes. Point is to be willingly martyred at 12 and not willingly absolved at 6 (if there should be some case where a child would go to confession then; again, I haven’t asked about this) seems a little odd. Then again, we let a little blindfolded kid pick our Pope, so maybe I should shut up about what strikes me as odd in other churches.

But anyway … that’s why I said “**around **age 7” … the degree of intellectual development depends on the individual. Some (and of course I’m speaking of the non-developmentally challenged here) might be able to distinguish right-from-wrong at age 5 while others might not be at that level for another 2 or 3 years. Sometimes my old friend Judge Judy (qualified, I think, after 25-some years on the Family Court bench) questions young children, and the age bracket for knowing right-from-wrong seems to be in the 5-7 year range.

And so, after all that bluster … in a nutshell: if one doesn’t know right-from-wrong, I seem to think one cannot willingly confess. I didn’t mean to imply anything more than that.

 

[dzheremi]

Oh, yeah. I know. I’m not even disagreeing. I’m saying there’s no hard and fast line. If I recall correctly, at St. Mark’s COC in Scottsdale/Phoenix, where I was baptized, there were kids that looked to be younger than 7 in training to be “deacons” (in quotes because who qualifies to be called that in the Coptic Church can seem a bit…confusing), already vested in some manner or another and giving the simpler, set responses (“epi prosevkhi stasite”, “eshlil”, etc).

 

[babochka]

Yes. Point is to be willingly martyred at 12 and not willingly absolved at 6 (if there should be some case where a child would go to confession then; again, I haven’t asked about this) seems a little odd. Then again, we let a little blindfolded kid pick our Pope, so maybe I should shut up about what strikes me as odd in other churches.

I don’t think the Latin church really has a hard and fast rule about the age of reason. I think it is presumed to be around age 7.

My older children both asked to go to confession at ages 5 and 6, after a particular homily. The priest and I decided that if they were asking for the sacrament, they no doubt were ready on some level. On the other hand, some particularly immature children do not really discern sin until much later, or ever in the case of developmental delays.

 

[babochka]

I asked what about for someone who is comatose or unconscious. Can their sins be absolved, and he related a story about a man in Greece who was unresponsive and the priest absolved him of his sins saying he was in the mercy of God and all we could do is trust in that.

If someone is unable to confess, he or she is absolved through the Anointing of the Sick.

 

[dzheremi]

I don’t think the Latin church really has a hard and fast rule about the age of reason. I think it is presumed to be around age 7.

Well, there is the related issue of requiring rational assent to receiving the sacrament that I suppose underpins this perspective, as below:

On the other hand, some particularly immature children do not really discern sin until much later, or ever in the case of developmental delays.

I can’t help but think that if we had this view we would not commune infants, but we do (I thought Eastern Catholics did too, but maybe they don’t, or at least some of them don’t). It’s not that I don’t understand the self-awareness needed for confession, but more that I can’t imagine a person being prevented from receiving due to developmental problems, as seems to be implied by the highlighted portion above. We don’t have any developmentally disabled people in our parish, but I assume that if we did they would be communed under the same understanding that we commune infants: They need the saving body and blood of Christ no less than someone who can rationally understand why they need it, and after all Christ created and died for them, too.

 

[babochka]

I can’t help but think that if we had this view we would not commune infants, but we do (I thought Eastern Catholics did too, but maybe they don’t, or at least some of them don’t). It’s not that I don’t understand the self-awareness needed for confession, but more that I can’t imagine a person being prevented from receiving due to developmental problems, as seems to be implied by the highlighted portion above. We don’t have any developmentally disabled people in our parish, but I assume that if we did they would be communed under the same understanding that we commune infants: They need the saving body and blood of Christ no less than someone who can rationally understand why they need it, and after all Christ created and died for them, too.

I’m speaking specifically of Confession here. Most Eastern Catholics do commune infants, and many developmentally disabled adults receive Holy Communion as well. Somebody who has not reached the age (or developmental stage) of reason would have no capacity for confession and of course, no need for it. Of course those people should receive communion.

 

[Zekariya]

It is not too dissimilar to a hierodeacon being permitted to hear the confession and the hieromonk granting the absolution… which is not common, but was noted by Fr. Schmemman as part of Byzantine Orthodox tradition.

I think them similar in that the priest does not hear the confession of the penitent from the penitent. I find the Byzantine tradition to be valid. The bishops permits his priest to hear and absolve sins. The priest (with permission of the bishop) delegates the hearing of sins to a qualified spiritual guide. All of this occurs with the permission of the bishop in accordance to Byzantine tradition.

 

[Vico]

Well, there is the related issue of requiring rational assent to receiving the sacrament that I suppose underpins this perspective, as below:

I can’t help but think that if we had this view we would not commune infants, but we do (I thought Eastern Catholics did too, but maybe they don’t, or at least some of them don’t). It’s not that I don’t understand the self-awareness needed for confession, but more that I can’t imagine a person being prevented from receiving due to developmental problems, as seems to be implied by the highlighted portion above. We don’t have any developmentally disabled people in our parish, but I assume that if we did they would be communed under the same understanding that we commune infants: They need the saving body and blood of Christ no less than someone who can rationally understand why they need it, and after all Christ created and died for them, too.

The Latin Church does not emphasize the nuturing of the Holy Spirit in baptized infants (they cannot sin). This is different than the eastern churches which do. The canon law shows the sacramental discipline:

Can. 913 §1 For holy communion to be administered to children, it is required that they have sufficient knowledge and be accurately prepared, so that according to their capacity they understand what the mystery of Christ means, and are able to receive the Body of the Lord with faith and devotion.
§2 The blessed Eucharist may, however, be administered to children in danger of death if they can distinguish the Body of Christ from ordinary food and receive communion with reverence.

Can. 914 It is primarily the duty of parents and of those who take their place, as it is the duty of the parish priest, to ensure that children who have reached the use of reason are properly prepared and, having made their sacramental confession, are nourished by this divine food as soon as possible. It is also the duty of the parish priest to see that children who have not reached the use of reason, or whom he has judged to be insufficiently disposed, do not come to holy communion.