Origin of faith and morals in Papal infalliblity

[zachh]

I can’t remember where I read it, but somewhere someone said that Papal infallibility is only defined to be infallible on faith and morals to circumvent things like controversies over indulgences and such.

I know that indulgences wasn’t a doctorine, but where did the specific limitation of faith and morals come from?

 

[corvidae]

My theory is that it came from logic.

The Pope cannot go up to a mountain, say the mountain is not there, and have the mountain be gone.

So obviously it doesn’t apply to everything.

And the only thing that it would need to apply to is Faith and Morals, because that is what the Holy Spirit would do to keep the gates of hell from prevailing against the Church.

The Church cannot teach error, but what the Church is concerned with is Faith and Morals.

Just my two cents

A lone Raven

p.s.- did that make any sense?

 

[Saint_Michael]

I can’t remember where I read it, but somewhere someone said that Papal infallibility is only defined to be infallible on faith and morals to circumvent things like controversies over indulgences and such.

I know that indulgences wasn’t a doctorine, but where did the specific limitation of faith and morals come from?

Think of papal infallibility in terms of your belief in biblical infallibity (I’m assuming). You believe that the Bible is free from doctrinal error and cannot lead a person away from salvation or teach them in error in regards to Jesus, God, and salvation. But that doesn’t mean it is free from grammar, spelling, or other errors that are found in every version of the Bible, yes even the 1611 KJV. You also believe the writers of the Bible were in fact infallible under the Holy Spirit when writing the Bible, we feel the same way about the Pope as leader of Christ’s Church.

Indulgences are a doctrine of the Church, you can still get indulgences, however you get indulgences by corporal works of mercy, praying etc… However selling indulgences has always been simony and is a grave sin. There were abuses on the selling of indulgences, whether this went up to the Pope is debateable, the fact that they were selling them on the steps of St. Peter’s Bascillica leads me to believe the Pope was aware this was going on, but even if it did, the Pope never taught it was o.k., I think that would strike at the Popes impeccability. The selling of indulgences was handled in the counter-reformation, the church saw the widespread problem and addressed it. The selling of indulgences is a tough pill for me as a Catholic to swallow, I have to believe that the Popes impeccability was impeached and he didn’t change doctrine.

 

[Scottgun]

Edit: I see St. Michael beat me to it.

I can’t remember where I read it, but somewhere someone said that Papal infallibility is only defined to be infallible on faith and morals to circumvent things like controversies over indulgences and such.

I know that indulgences wasn’t a doctorine, but where did the specific limitation of faith and morals come from?

Actually indulgences are doctrinal. From Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma:

The Church possesses the power to grant Indulgences. (De Fide.)

and

The use of Indulgences is useful and salutary to the Faithful. (De Fide.)

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I can’t remember where I read it, but somewhere someone said that Papal infallibility is only defined to be infallible on faith and morals…

The Church teaches that ecclesiastical discipline is also infallible, but in an indirect and negative sense. See more here: Are Ecclesiastical Disciplines Infallible?

… to circumvent things like controversies over indulgences and such.

No. It was defined because it was true.

I know that indulgences wasn’t a doctorine

No. It IS a doctrine. See here…Indulgences, 1471-79

for the dead, 1032, 1479

definition and significance of, 1471

effects of, 1498

obtaining God’s indulgences through the Church, 1478-79

 

[Scottgun]

Ha! I looks like three of us pounced on that one.

Guess I will make myself useful with these links. Primer on Indulgences and Myths About Indulgences

Scott

 

[zachh]

I’m sorry. I shouldn’t post as soon as I get out of bed.

I know that indulgences is a doctorine, but what I ment to say was that selling indulgences was a practice and not a doctorine.

Also, I’m Catholic and I was trying to understand how to answer a Protestant’s claim. The answers that you all provide do make sense, especially

And the only thing that it would need to apply to is Faith and Morals, because that is what the Holy Spirit would do to keep the gates of hell from prevailing against the Church.

Thanks to you all.

 

[Saint_Michael]

I’m sorry. I shouldn’t post as soon as I get out of bed.

I know that indulgences is a doctorine, but what I ment to say was that selling indulgences was a practice and not a doctorine.

Selling indulgences has always been simony, a grave sin that is the dealing in holy thigs for profit. If people were selling indulgences they were committing a grave sin and doing irreparable harm to the Church that plagues us to this day. Selling indulgences was neither a doctrine or a practice, it was a sin and should not have been done.

 

[Tom]

I can’t remember where I read it, but somewhere someone said that Papal infallibility is only defined to be infallible on faith and morals to circumvent things like controversies over indulgences and such.

I know that indulgences wasn’t a doctorine, but where did the specific limitation of faith and morals come from?

Getting back to the original question of where the “limitation” of infallibility comes from, it actually comes from (an infallible) a Council and is a teaching of the Church Magisterium.

 

[VociMike]

I can’t remember where I read it, but somewhere someone said that Papal infallibility is only defined to be infallible on faith and morals to circumvent things like controversies over indulgences and such.

I know that indulgences wasn’t a doctorine, but where did the specific limitation of faith and morals come from?

From Christ. He told the Church what it was to do – to go forth and make disciples of every nation. To teach the Gospel (the entire Gospel ) The Church only has divine authority in that area.