Original intention, thoughts not known, Anti-Catholic sentiment

[Roy5]

I’m not sure why people want to look for religious bigotry. True, it exists, but the situation has improved so much since Vatican II that it is nothing like it was when I was a kid.

For example, Catholic children were told it was a terrible sin to go to a Protestant church, even though they might have to miss baptisms, weddings and funerals of family and friends who were not Catholic. There was a widespread belief among Catholics that there was no salvation outside of the Church (a belief some CAFers seem to still embrace). I recall in my hometown, Protestant kids could attend events at Catholic churches not not vice versa. Fortunately, Vatican II and John XXIII changed much of that. It must have been about 1963 when suddenly - overnight - we could worship together, Catholics discovered that Protestants no longer were heretics but separated Christian brothers and sisters. Mainline Protestants in my community were quick to respond enthusiastically. They don't believe in any one 'true church' anyway. hey seem to have developed, over the years, a 'big tent' approach. You believe as you do and I believe as I do, but let's be friends, respect the religion of each other, and serve Christ together as well as in our own distinctive ways.

 Today the large majority of Protestants and Catholics don't want to return to those days of such prejudice. There are some Protestants - I don't believe I've ever met any - that still speak of Catholicism as unChristian, pagan, whatever, just as there are some Catholics who continue to bitterly assail Protestantism. Both groups usually talk nonsense, out of ignorance, I remember when Catholics were warned against going to the YMCA because it was founded by Protestants. And many still rail against the Masons, even though Masons about as innocuous as any group in America - overwhelmingly middle class, largely upstanding men in their communities.

 There are those who insist on living in the past, keeping the poison of prejudice of earlier times alive as long as possible. Catholics and Protestants by the millions set their religious connections aside and vote for candidates because of policies embraced rather than religion. I believe that for the first time in history we have a Catholic vice-president, and who cares? Well, yes, many Republicans do, but not because Biden is Catholic. In various majority-Protestant states we have Catholic congressmen and senators and who frets about it? 

 Here on CAF there seem to be many Catholics with what I call fierce tribal loyalties. Loyalty is to be commended except when it cultivates bigotry, paranoia, too often a false sense of victimization. 55 of the 56 who signed the Declaration of Independence were Protestant. The same % ratified the Constitution, even while popes like Pius IX were blasting democracy and assailing the separation of church and state. I consider myself lucky to be an American, and I hope you do, too.

 

[CopticChristian]

I’m not sure why people want to look for religious bigotry. True, it exists, but the situation has improved so much since Vatican II that it is nothing like it was when I was a kid.

For example, Catholic children were told it was a terrible sin to go to a Protestant church, even though they might have to miss baptisms, weddings and funerals of family and friends who were not Catholic. There was a widespread belief among Catholics that there was no salvation outside of the Church (a belief some CAFers seem to still embrace). I recall in my hometown, Protestant kids could attend events at Catholic churches not not vice versa. Fortunately, Vatican II and John XXIII changed much of that. It must have been about 1963 when suddenly - overnight - we could worship together, Catholics discovered that Protestants no longer were heretics but separated Christian brothers and sisters. Mainline Protestants in my community were quick to respond enthusiastically. They don't believe in any one 'true church' anyway. hey seem to have developed, over the years, a 'big tent' approach. You believe as you do and I believe as I do, but let's be friends, respect the religion of each other, and serve Christ together as well as in our own distinctive ways.

 Today the large majority of Protestants and Catholics don't want to return to those days of such prejudice. There are some Protestants - I don't believe I've ever met any - that still speak of Catholicism as unChristian, pagan, whatever, just as there are some Catholics who continue to bitterly assail Protestantism. Both groups usually talk nonsense, out of ignorance, I remember when Catholics were warned against going to the YMCA because it was founded by Protestants. And many still rail against the Masons, even though Masons about as innocuous as any group in America - overwhelmingly middle class, largely upstanding men in their communities.

 There are those who insist on living in the past, keeping the poison of prejudice of earlier times alive as long as possible. Catholics and Protestants by the millions set their religious connections aside and vote for candidates because of policies embraced rather than religion. I believe that for the first time in history we have a Catholic vice-president, and who cares? Well, yes, many Republicans do, but not because Biden is Catholic. In various majority-Protestant states we have Catholic congressmen and senators and who frets about it? 

 Here on CAF there seem to be many Catholics with what I call fierce tribal loyalties. Loyalty is to be commended except when it cultivates bigotry, paranoia, too often a false sense of victimization. 55 of the 56 who signed the Declaration of Independence were Protestant. The same % ratified the Constitution, even while popes like Pius IX were blasting democracy and assailing the separation of church and state. I consider myself lucky to be an American, and I hope you do, too.

I understand your position. I suppose the NAACP and all the groups that can be found at this website…

heartsandminds.org/links/racelinks.htm

that fight racism should disband based on this analysis, since slavery has been abolished, Baptists split over the issue, the mormons just declared that blacks can be ministers, the civil rights laws are in place and there are no minds that contain any of this poison. We should just move on.

 

[Roy5]

Comparing anti-Black prejudice with that directed against Catholics is apples and oranges. No comparison whatsoever. And I, personally, am not sympathetic to those who still promote a black victimization mentality either. That’s why I have trouble with, say, a Sharpton and a Jackson. They exploit race (in my view) to bring fame and fortune to themselves.

 Dr. King was a totally different person in a very different era. Blacks could not vote in much of the South, they were segregated in  many states, and they were treated like dirt and had to live in the shadows in the larger society. I lived through that era and was deeply angered that we were proclaiming the glories of democracy around the world while it was being denied to so many here at home. Besides, Dr. King both preached and lived a wonderful Christian message of love, reconciliation and peace. 

 There is still considerable bias against blacks in the USA. However, I still don't believe it serves any useful purpose for them to emphasize victimization. Our president is now half African. Whether we agree with him or not that was an historic victory over bigotry that (in all honesty) brought tears to my eyes. I never expected to witness it in my lifetime. There are still some who can't seem to stand having a Black man as our chief executive. Others, of course, strongly disapprove of his policies, which is the American way. Being against his policies is fine. Being against him because of his skin color in unAmerican and, of course, unChristian.

 Being prejudiced against people of other faiths is unAmerican, too. That doesn't mean we can't have different religious beliefs, of course. We should be grateful for and celebrate our diversity and the freedom we have to follow the dictates of our minds and hearts. Where Catholicism troubles many people is that they see it as monarchial, even medieval, and often arrogant in its continual insistence that it alone espouses the full truth of the gospel. The way the Pope is idolized also can seem to some to resemble the cult of the personality. I have seen and heard four Popes in person, one in Rome, three in New York City, and the adulation I witnessed bothers me.  

 But God bless the Mother Theresas and Father Damiens who were so selfless over the centuries, and those dedicated priests, nuns, and people of all faiths who still devote themselves humbly to serving God through serving others. Matt.25:32-46. Too many Christians make a religion out of creeds and ritual while all but ignoring the key command of Christ: that we love one another. 

 Let us seek to make religion a bridge and not a barrier.

 

[CopticChristian]

Comparing anti-Black prejudice with that directed against Catholics is apples and oranges. No comparison whatsoever. And I, personally, am not sympathetic to those who still promote a black victimization mentality either. That’s why I have trouble with, say, a Sharpton and a Jackson. They exploit race (in my view) to bring fame and fortune to themselves.

 Dr. King was a totally different person in a very different era. Blacks could not vote in much of the South, they were segregated in  many states, and they were treated like dirt and had to live in the shadows in the larger society. I lived through that era and was deeply angered that we were proclaiming the glories of democracy around the world while it was being denied to so many here at home. Besides, Dr. King both preached and lived a wonderful Christian message of love, reconciliation and peace. 

 There is still considerable bias against blacks in the USA. However, I still don't believe it serves any useful purpose for them to emphasize victimization. Our president is now half African. Whether we agree with him or not that was an historic victory over bigotry that (in all honesty) brought tears to my eyes. I never expected to witness it in my lifetime. There are still some who can't seem to stand having a Black man as our chief executive. Others, of course, strongly disapprove of his policies, which is the American way. Being against his policies is fine. Being against him because of his skin color in unAmerican and, of course, unChristian.

 Being prejudiced against people of other faiths is unAmerican, too. That doesn't mean we can't have different religious beliefs, of course. We should be grateful for and celebrate our diversity and the freedom we have to follow the dictates of our minds and hearts. Where Catholicism troubles many people is that they see it as monarchial, even medieval, and often arrogant in its continual insistence that it alone espouses the full truth of the gospel. The way the Pope is idolized also can seem to some to resemble the cult of the personality. I have seen and heard four Popes in person, one in Rome, three in New York City, and the adulation I witnessed bothers me.  

 But God bless the Mother Theresas and Father Damiens who were so selfless over the centuries, and those dedicated priests, nuns, and people of all faiths who still devote themselves humbly to serving God through serving others. Matt.25:32-46. Too many Christians make a religion out of creeds and ritual while all but ignoring the key command of Christ: that we love one another. 

 Let us seek to make religion a bridge and not a barrier.

Sins against Charity come in all types. Are you going to tell me that prejudice is of a certian type? If Faith, Hope, and Love abide and Love is the greatest and endures, then the only thing that endures is God. Sins agaist Charity are nothing more than sins against the creator. Do you want to speak to Him about this?

 

[Roy5]

CopticChristian

I guess I’m a little dense, as I don’t get the meaning of your question. I’m only making the point that religious bigotry is wrong, just as racial bigotry is wrong. I tire of people making bigoted remarks about other faiths, usually out of prejudice and/or ignorance.

As far as the record of different faith communities is concerned, none of them have a perfect slate. I just finished reading *Absolute Monarchs*, a history of the papacy. Thank God for men like John XXIII, but there were some notorious popes, too. That's all history and we shouldn't hold prejudices because of what happened hundreds of years ago.

I'm still curious re Coptic Christians. When I have visited Egypt I have met various Coptic Christians, and they have made it crystal clear that they are not under the papacy. In fact, they seemed quite alienated from Rome. I gather this is rooted in history, too, way back to one of those early Councils - I forget which one. Anyway, they seemed incensed that they were accused of monophysism (sp?) which they vigorously denied. They also have their own Pope - his name slips my mind at the moment, too. They appear to regard themselves as Orthodox, yet independent from mainstream Orthodox, also. Again, a quirk of history - probably related more to politics and personalities than to doctrine, Many of these splits seem to have been so influenced. 
 
Those who believe as a matter of their faith that Catholicism under Rome cannot err in matters of faith and morals should relax because God will make sure that you 'win out' - so to speak. People like me, who have trouble submitting our minds to others, who treasure freedom to think and explore and challenge and doubt, who believe that God gave us brains to use creatively and not to restrict - well, over the years traditional Catholicism has become an increasing problem. There is so much wonderful about Catholicism and its contributions to the world in education, medicine and the like, but I cannot turn over my conscience and/or intellect to any church, Catholic or Protestant. I keep hoping and praying for additional reforms within the Church, though that seems unlikely under the present Pope. A brilliant man, to be sure, but very much of the 'old school'

 God bless you and everybody else, regardless of their opinions.

 

[CopticChristian]

CopticChristian

I guess I’m a little dense, as I don’t get the meaning of your question. I’m only making the point that religious bigotry is wrong, just as racial bigotry is wrong. I tire of people making bigoted remarks about other faiths, usually out of prejudice and/or ignorance.

As far as the record of different faith communities is concerned, none of them have a perfect slate. I just finished reading *Absolute Monarchs*, a history of the papacy. Thank God for men like John XXIII, but there were some notorious popes, too. That's all history and we shouldn't hold prejudices because of what happened hundreds of years ago.

I'm still curious re Coptic Christians. When I have visited Egypt I have met various Coptic Christians, and they have made it crystal clear that they are not under the papacy. In fact, they seemed quite alienated from Rome. I gather this is rooted in history, too, way back to one of those early Councils - I forget which one. Anyway, they seemed incensed that they were accused of monophysism (sp?) which they vigorously denied. They also have their own Pope - his name slips my mind at the moment, too. They appear to regard themselves as Orthodox, yet independent from mainstream Orthodox, also. Again, a quirk of history - probably related more to politics and personalities than to doctrine, Many of these splits seem to have been so influenced. 
 
Those who believe as a matter of their faith that Catholicism under Rome cannot err in matters of faith and morals should relax because God will make sure that you 'win out' - so to speak. People like me, who have trouble submitting our minds to others, who treasure freedom to think and explore and challenge and doubt, who believe that God gave us brains to use creatively and not to restrict - well, over the years traditional Catholicism has become an increasing problem. There is so much wonderful about Catholicism and its contributions to the world in education, medicine and the like, but I cannot turn over my conscience and/or intellect to any church, Catholic or Protestant. I keep hoping and praying for additional reforms within the Church, though that seems unlikely under the present Pope. A brilliant man, to be sure, but very much of the 'old school'

 God bless you and everybody else, regardless of their opinions.

Your question about Coptics should be understood as there are Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholic.

Your other concerns may be answered by reading John Paul II Fides et Ratio and Veritatis Splendor.

I understand well the difficulty with Reason, as Protestant thought is driven by reason, stating it is faith.

 

[Trebor135]

People like me, who have trouble submitting our minds to others, who treasure freedom to think and explore and challenge and doubt, who believe that God gave us brains to use creatively and not to restrict - well, over the years traditional Catholicism has become an increasing problem. There is so much wonderful about Catholicism and its contributions to the world in education, medicine and the like, but I cannot turn over my conscience and/or intellect to any church, Catholic or Protestant. I keep hoping and praying for additional reforms within the Church, though that seems unlikely under the present Pope. A brilliant man, to be sure, but very much of the ‘old school’

The way of thinking you espouse can ultimately lead to nothing better than a complete loss of faith–apostasy. The above paragraph eerily echoes what I would bet a million dollars your run-of-the-mill agnostic would say if they jumped into this discussion:

People like me, who have trouble submitting our minds to anyone but ourselves, who treasure freedom to think and explore and challenge and doubt, who believe that evolution gave us brains to use creatively and not to restrict - well, over the years traditional Christianity has become an increasing problem. There is so much wonderful about Christianity and its contributions to the world in education, medicine and the like, but I cannot turn over my conscience and/or intellect to any holy book or religion. I keep hoping for additional reforms within Christianity, though with some exceptions that seems unlikely under the present circumstances.

A practicing Christian, you have yielded to the relativism of the modern Western world. If there’s one good thing I can say about Islam, it’s that it still teaches the existence of absolute truth…

 

[Roy5]

Trebor135

Actually, my faith in God is deep and a source of enormous wonder and strength. The fact that I cannot subscribe fully to any one set of doctrines doesn't weaken my faith at all. In fact, it makes me all the more awe-struck by the Creator of this vast, inscrutable universe. 

 I have read enough in the Church Fathers, etc., hoping to find great wisdom. I have found brilliant men for their age, but with that all sorts of superstitions and primitive thinking. I don't blame them because they lacked good telescopes and miscroscopes and had no idea that there may be a million solar systems out there. So I can both appreciate what insights they did have considering such limitations but certainly don't look to them for authoritative guidance in this 21st century. 

 The opposite of freedom of thought is not necessarily agnosticism. It can be, as in my case, an admission that we don't know a lot of things. It leads to a form of humility rather than the sort of arrogance that can accompany the assertion that my church and my doctrines and my sacraments are the only fully valid ones. That certainly makes lots of people feel superior because they are members of the one and only true church. 

 The usual response to my position involves accusing us of putting our mind above all others, of being egotistic. It's difficult to debate when the argument becomes ad hominem instead of on the issues. 

 But God bless you anyway - and everybody else of every creed, color, culture and country.  Someday we will see things as God does, and I suspect that our perspectives are badly warped by our severe limitations as human beings. But praise the Lord, regardless!

 

[Trebor135]

Actually, my faith in God is deep and a source of enormous wonder and strength. The fact that I cannot subscribe fully to any one set of doctrines doesn’t weaken my faith at all. In fact, it makes me all the more awe-struck by the Creator of this vast, inscrutable universe.

I said “can”, not “will definitely in all cases”.

I have read enough in the Church Fathers, etc., hoping to find great wisdom. I have found brilliant men for their age, but with that all sorts of superstitions and primitive thinking. I don’t blame them because they lacked good telescopes and miscroscopes and had no idea that there may be a million solar systems out there. So I can both appreciate what insights they did have considering such limitations but certainly don’t look to them for authoritative guidance in this 21st century.

If the apostles Peter and Paul rose from the grave, ended up in your living room, and offered their beliefs about the natural world, they would surely express “superstitions” and exhibit “primitive thinking”. But then why do you accept the New Testament epistles they wrote?

And whether or not the Early Church Fathers believed the world was flat, the sun rotated around the earth, or the moon is made of cheese, how would this in any way affect the truth of their Christian teaching? This is like saying:

1. John is a professional economist. All his colleagues hold this PhD in very high regard.
2. John is also an amateur astronomer. He often makes interesting, and inaccurate, claims about the solar system.
3. Therefore, his colleagues shouldn’t trust John on matters of economics nearly as much as they do presently.

The opposite of freedom of thought is not necessarily agnosticism. It can be, as in my case, an admission that we don’t know a lot of things. It leads to a form of humility rather than the sort of arrogance that can accompany the assertion that my church and my doctrines and my sacraments are the only fully valid ones. That certainly makes lots of people feel superior because they are members of the one and only true church.

The usual response to my position involves accusing us of putting our mind above all others, of being egotistic. It’s difficult to debate when the argument becomes ad hominem instead of on the issues.

Well, where in the New Testament does Jesus declare that Christian truth is relative, especially in light of the following passages?

Matthew 28:20b: “[L]o, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

John 14:26: “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.”

John 16:12-13: [12] “I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
[13] When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.”

But God bless you anyway - and everybody else of every creed, color, culture and country. Someday we will see things as God does, and I suspect that our perspectives are badly warped by our severe limitations as human beings. But praise the Lord, regardless!

Same to you.

 

[CopticChristian]

Trebor135

Actually, my faith in God is deep and a source of enormous wonder and strength.   In fact, it makes me all the more awe-struck by the Creator of this vast, inscrutable universe. 

 
   humility rather than the sort of arrogance that can accompany the assertion that my church and my doctrines and my sacraments are the only fully valid ones. That certainly makes lots of people feel superior because they are members of the one and only true church. 

 
 But God bless you   But praise the Lord, regardless!

I understand your perception. Those born in America, land of the free, should be humbled by the knowledge that elsewhere people are longing to be here and for those born here there is no boasting.

To be born into the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church is not to be arrogant. To give up a religious belief held firmly and to accept another is not so much giving up but seeing it differently, changing a perspective.

A murderer, a blameless practicing Jew, persecutor of The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, Paul saw, explained, the Old Covenant and Old Testament with new insights and in a sense did not abandon his Jewishness. He expaned it to understand that Gentiles, Greeks, Barbarians were created by God and God was impartial to them, not just the chosen ones. He preached that. He, as he aged, saw himself as an Apostle, in time as a saint and in later years, like all of us a sinner.

In his earlier years of ministry (around AD 55), Paul wrote a letter to the Corinthian church in which he referred to himself as “the least of all the apostles” (1 Corinthians 15:9). Five years later, around AD 60, Paul wrote to the Ephesians and in chapter three, verse eight he said “I am the very least of all the saints” (Ephesians 3:8). Four to six years later, Paul writes these words to his apprentice, Timothy, in 1 Timothy 1:12-17: The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.

I belong to the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, I had no vision, I had no conversion to speak of, I am in constant conversion with new and deeper insights. I am not proud. I am humbled as Paul was. Since I am neither Apostle or Saint then I stand in good stead with Paul. Are we all not standing with the greatest of sinners, such a great cloud of witnesses?

I ask you to look at my post on looking for a good bible commentary concerning the letter to the Romans by Scott Hahn. I ask you to forgive all of us who perhaps have not yet come to the realization that as we journey, we too are numbered among the least. In the end the least shall be the greatest. The worst will be the best.

I ask you again to read Veritatis Splendor and Fides et Ratio

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_06081993_veritatis-splendor_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html

What is the worst that will happen? You may waste some time reading. You may learn something. You may find yourself in dialogue and say to someone, this is similar to Veritatis Splendor or Fides et Ration…and there is a chance that if you are speaking to a Catholic, they may not have read it. How proud will they be if you do that?

 

[GKC]

I have seen this often. I have seen and cannot find the post on the Church of England demanding allegiance to the queen. Anyone know where that is?

I completely lost track of this thread, after posting once. I’m not sure what you are referring to, re: the Church of England demanding allegiance to the Queen. If you can clarify it a little, I might have a go at it.

GKC

 

[CopticChristian]

I completely lost track of this thread, after posting once. I’m not sure what you are referring to, re: the Church of England demanding allegiance to the Queen. If you can clarify it a little, I might have a go at it.

GKC

It is my understanding that there is something that is anti-catholic that requires Anglicans, the church, I do not know to swear allegiance to the queen and no other.

 

[GKC]

It is my understanding that there is something that is anti-catholic that requires Anglicans, the church, I do not know to swear allegiance to the queen and no other.

No.

No other what?

There are limitations on RCs as to being/being married to the Monarch. But nothing that requires Anglicans qua Anglicans, to swear allegiance to the Queen, as the Queen,

Are you thinking of the Parliamentary Act of 1559, which required all CoE, and lay officials in England to acknowledge the Monarch as supreme governor of the CoE? The CoE is an erastian church; Parliamentary laws can govern it how it is organized and run. But that’s not allegiance to the monarch, it’s a law saying who the governor of the CoE is.

GKC

 

[Izdaari]

There is still considerable bias against blacks in the USA. However, I still don’t believe it serves any useful purpose for them to emphasize victimization. Our president is now half African. Whether we agree with him or not that was an historic victory over bigotry that (in all honesty) brought tears to my eyes. I never expected to witness it in my lifetime. There are still some who can’t seem to stand having a Black man as our chief executive. Others, of course, strongly disapprove of his policies, which is the American way. Being against his policies is fine. Being against him because of his skin color in unAmerican and, of course, unChristian.

That would be me. I applauded the inauguration of our first black president, a great historic first, but I really don’t like most of Obama’s policies, and I’d prefer to replace him with, say, Herman Cain (who is blacker than Obama, but conservative).

But God bless the Mother Theresas and Father Damiens who were so selfless over the centuries, and those dedicated priests, nuns, and people of all faiths who still devote themselves humbly to serving God through serving others. Matt.25:32-46. Too many Christians make a religion out of creeds and ritual while all but ignoring the key command of Christ: that we love one another.

 Let us seek to make religion a bridge and not a barrier.

Amen, bro!