Original Quran was burnt

[sea_oat]

Anyway, am I supposed to lie to myself and pretend that there haven’t been thousands of changes, additions, and deletions from the thousands of earlier manuscripts of the Bible over the centuries? That is a documented fact, should I bury my head in the sand?

No offense, but I’m glad you mentioned Bart Ehrman, since this paragraph looks like it came STRAIGHT out of his book, “Misquoting Jesus.”

Bart Ehrman is obviously a good scholar, but he’s not an infallible one. No one is. Even worse, his popular books (specificaly “Misquoting Jesus”) are presented as scholarly points and facts slathered with a generous amount of his opinion.

He was a fundamentalist Christian who believed the Bible should be literally taken word-for-word. Not surprisingly, his faith started quickly crumbling after encountering even small scribal error issues. It doesn’t mean yours has to, too.

There are a lot of excellent scholars who don’t have the same faith issues he has. Bruce Metzger, for example, who was Ehrman’s teacher, and who was pretty much the top Biblical scholar before Ehrman even registered on the academic radar, never lost his Presbyterian faith as far as I know.

Since Ehrman has such a hard time keeping his own opinions out of his scholarship, it’s hardly a wonder why so many of his readers have swallowed his opinions and personal faith issues along with his points.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

I gottta hand it to Islam the memororization of the Qu’ran is very impressive. It may not be word for word what Muhammed said but it is much more reliable than the Bible copies we have, which are copies of the copies of the copies of the originals at best.

No sense in trashing the Qu’ran’s reliability when it’s obviously in better standing than the Bible and/or Torah translations.

Imagine people memorizing the entire New Testament word for word by heart? That would be impressive.

Then you might be impressed by this. I have a friend who spent 7 years in the Hanoi Hilton. The North Vietnamese took pretty much everything from them over time, but one form of resistance they practiced was reciting the Bible to each other. Most of the time they couldn’t even speak it aloud, they had to tap it to one another by code between the cell blocks. At first it was difficult, but as more and more fliers were captured each was able to add a bit more. By the time they were released at the end of the war, working as a team they had been able to successfully recall nearly the entire New Testament, including 100% of the Gospels, also all of the Psalms and Proverbs and at least some of every other book of the Old Testament, even from the Deuterocanonical books. He had been home about 6 months when he told me this, and could still recite whole books of the Bible unaided. Sometimes he would jump from one translation to another, but in our little prayer group if we had several different Bibles in hand you could follow along and he wouldn’t miss a verse.

 

[Yousef]

Salaam (peace) to all whose hearts are open to the truth and who seek to know the truth.

I have read many of the posts here on Islam and the Holy Quraan and I have a few comments.

About the Bible, if any part of it is true then Muslims must accept it. Islam teaches us that we must accept the fact that Allah Almighty (Arabic for the very same God, as is Dios and Deux) sent divine revelation to the Israelites (they were not Jews back then) through Prophet Moses, may peace be upon him (we must cite that whenever we mention or write the name of any of God’s divinely appointed Prophets, which Christians and Jews themselves never say) and later to Prophet Jesus, may peace be upon him.

However, there is an enormous amount of evidence that the Bible has been changed so much that there are over 50,000 mistakes in it according to Hartzell Spence, the son of a theologian. It is not on the Internet for obvious reasons but search for it on fiche at your main library. Therefore, Muslims cannot be Muslims if they reject those prior two divine revelations from Allah in their pure and unadulterated form, but even though there are an incredibly large number of errors, contradictions, etc, if there is any truth there that teaches humankind how to act and behave properly as God expects us to do then Muslims must accept it. There are no errors at all in the Quraan.

The primary difference between Muslims and Christians is the status of Prophet Jesus, may peace be upon him. Muslims reject the divinity of any person other that Allah, and this can lead to a very long discussion. I think that Jews, too, ascribed a son to God - Ezra?

The question is not whether the Quraan remains in its pure form since it was divinely revealed to Prophet Muhammad, may peace be upon him, even though there is historical evidence that a number of early Muslims during his lifetime in fact had the entire Quraan completely memorized. The fact that the Quraan was revealed in bits and pieces over a period of over 23 years made that easy. The real question is whether the Quraan teaches its readers a complete guideline on how one must live one’s life to please Allah and to be a benefit to all humankind, and it certainly does that.

True, some earlier compilations of the Quraan were destroyed because they were the unauthorized efforts of individuals, but the authenticity of the Quraan as we see it today is the exact same as when it was first divinely revealed as a guidance not only to Muslims but to all of humankind, as was the Torah and the Gospels before it.

I find it interesting that religions own upward and deny downward. Jews reject Christianity and Islam (downward); Christians accept Judaism (upward) but deny Islam (downward; and Muslims accept the original divinely revealed revelations of both Christians and presnt day Jews (upward).

I was born in the US over 69 years ago so I recall vividly how Christians hated Jews with the greatest detestation, and the silent black and white film titled “The King of Kings” reinforced that hatred. Today the sons and daughters and their own children cannot get down far enough on their knees to beg Jews for forgiveness and the Christian need to hate and revile someone else’s religious beliefs fell upon the shoulders of Muslims. One wonders, therefore, when the sons and daughters and the Grandchildren of the Christian bashers of Islam and Muslim haters will be down on their knees begging Muslims for forgiveness. Then who will be next in line? Hindus? Buddhists? Sikhs? Or perhaps it will be Jews again.

What about tolerance? Muslims do not tolerate anyone, we accept them if they are of goodwill and kind hearts. If I had a pain in my elbow I want it to just go away and disappear, but it will not go away so I have to put up with it. That is tolerance. Might that apply to one’s next door neighbor whose skin is a different tone and whose religious beliefs are also different?

God help us and open our hearts to accepting one another for the goodness of our actions and the good intentions that we have towards each other.

May the peace, mercy, blessings and forgiveness of Allah Almighty fill the hearts and minds of all those among us who seek to benefit from each other and not to denigrate others.

Yousef

 

[inJESUS]

salam and welcome

may peace be upon him (we must cite that whenever we mention or write the name of any of God’s divinely appointed Prophets, which Christians and Jews themselves never say)

 

[Yousef]

As I expected from the onset there are those on this list whose hearts are encapsulated with despise and disrespct and trying to reach out to those on this list will be futile. Therefore, it is my prayer that those who have a yearning to learn through teaching and not through preaching will have their rewards from our Creator.

I have many Christian friends who are like my brothers and sisters in the true sense of the meaning of brother/sisterhood. They do not say “May peace be upon him” when they say or write the names of all of God’s divinely appointed Prophets, especially Prophet Jesus, may peace be upon him, since he is considered by them to be God’s son and then God Himself. When Muslims refer to God in the masculine terms of Him, His, and He it is not intended to mean that God has a gender.

I can fill pages with negative comments about most Christians and Christianity and others just as Christians can do the same with Muslims and Islam but I choose rather to find ways that we can all identify ourselves as the wondrous creation of our One Supreme Superior Natural Creator, God/Allah Almighty, 'azza wa jal, by looking for the good in each other. Everything other than that is defeatism.

I recommend two books: “Our God and Your God is One” by Zagloul Kadah, and “More in Common than You Think” by William (Bill) Baker who was a great influence on the change of heart that Rev. Robert Shuller’s (Crystal Cathedral in Garden Grove, CA) attitude towards Islam and Muslims.

The Quraan relates that of those who say they believe take the Christians as our friends for they are not arrogant and are not attached to this material world. We are not told to hate and despise them. I wonder what the NT would say about Muslims if it were the third and final divine revelation from God rather than the Quraan.

The Quraan also instructs that God created us all into different tribes and nations (Jews, Christians, et al) so that we may all come to know one another (not despise each other) and that the best among us are the most pious and righteous.

Martin Buber in his book “I and Thou” makes it clear that we cannot reach God without first reaching out to our fellow human beings.

A verse in the Holy Quraan also states: “To you your beliefs and to me mine.”

Allow these, please:

Among the many wonders of the Holy Quraan that could not possibly have been known by anyone during its revelation are:

1. The Rose Nebula recently uncovered (not discovered since it was always there) is mentioned in the Holy Quran; and
2. The barrier that divides two bodies of oceanic waters; and
3. The manner in which a fetus is conceived; and
4. That the mountains serve as pins that hold the crust of the earth together which was recently stated by archaeologists; and
5. That honey is made by bees and it is regurgitated in that form;
6. The existence of Black Holes and their function; and so on.

Do NOT take my word for the above, rather buy a copy of the Quraan and read it yourselves. A true indisputable miracle it be.

Let me leave it at that and bid you all peace and open hearts towards goodness and compassion as I exit this forum.

I have done what I set out to do and thus I bid fare thee all well, and may you all be graced by Allah’s mercy

Yousef

 

[NeedsFaith]

Since the original Quran was burnt, how can Muslims prove that the current version contains Mohammed’s words?

How do you know it was burnt?
Any links or ref’s ?

 

[jay29]

All Catholics should read this book:

Inside Islam

100 Questions and Answers for Catholics

It will certainly open your eyes about Islam, big time.

 

[TomaszA]

Yousef,

The biggest problem is that Muslims reject even what Scholars regard as certain, such as the Crucifixion and death of Jesus Christ.

 

[SunfromtheWest]

You have to realize that not all muslims follow every scholar. Every scholar may have his own opinion on some matters. Its like me asking you… “Do you believe in the beliefs of all the ministers of your faith?” Just because some scholars say something… does not mean it is correct. Heck i could even call myself a scholar and say something totally untrue.

Shia muslims do have a system where they follow a marja ( basically an islamic leader) and his rules. they do research on who they think is the most knowledgeable marja out there, and then they decide to follow one so that they can refer or ask questions the marja. but i do not think sunni muslims have a system such as this.

 

[SunfromtheWest]

and about jesus…

According to most muslims… Jesus was not crucified on the cross, and he did not die.

He is still in heaven… and will come to earth before the day of judgement. Some believe he will come with the mehdi who is the messiah.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace

… how can Muslims prove that the current version contains Mohammed’s words?

Quran is words of God Almighty . God made it easy for believers to remember /memorise. Quran is the only holy book in the earth that is memorised by its followers all over the world.

It is recited in daily prayers from memory by millions .

Not a single Christians ever memorised Bible when million Muslims have their holy book in memory .

 

[swariffin]

Salaam/peace

Quran is words of God Almighty . God made it easy for believers to remember /memorise. Quran is the only holy book in the earth that is memorised by its followers all over the world.

It is recited in daily prayers from memory by millions .

Not a single Christians ever memorised Bible when million Muslims have their holy book in memory .

Very Good, Muslim Woman. Quran is the proof of Muhammad’s word. And Muhammad’s word is the proof of Quran. Excelent and and an old way of circular logic.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace

How Were the Qur’an and the Bible Compiled?

Q. The Christians say that the original Bible is preserved in Jerusalem and that what we have is the translation. …Was the Qur’an compiled into a volume in the presence of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) or was it compiled later?

ans…The verses of the Qur’an were revealed to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be on him) in the course of 23 years of his life, as and when the events in the unfolding development of the religion of God called for divine guidance. As soon as the Prophet received these verses, he dictated them to his disciples, who not only wrote them down, but also learned them by heart.

There were so many people who had memorized the Qur’an, that we can say that from the first day of its revelation as it were, the Qur’an was in the hands and hearts of the people.

Before the death of the Prophet, the whole of the Qur’an was written down, examined, and verified by the Prophet himself. From that time onwards, it has remained safe from corruption, as several copies of it were in the possession of the Muslims. So it was not possible to make any changes to its verses, even if someone wanted to do so.

Moreover, God has promised in the Qur’an to preserve it, saying what means:

Certainly, it was We Who revealed the Reminder [the Qur’an] and certainly We shall preserve it. (Al-Hijr 15:9)

At the time of the Prophet’s death, a number of the Prophet’s Companions already had assembled the portions of the Qur’an with them into a volume.

full ans here

islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1123996016542

It was during the time of the first caliph Abu Bakr that a leading scholar and scribe of the Prophet, Zayd ibn Thabit, was appointed to compile an official version. After meticulous work, he prepared the official collection known as the mushaf.

One of the foremost reasons for the continued incorruptibility of the Qur’an is that it has been preserved in its original language, unlike the Bible. No one in the Muslim world has ever thought to supersede it with a translation.

Thus, the Qur’an we have today is the same Qur’an that the Prophet received from God. Its authenticity and genuineness, therefore, are unimpeachable.

 

[swariffin]

Salaam/peace

How Were the Qur’an and the Bible Compiled?

Q. The Christians say that the original Bible is preserved in Jerusalem and that what we have is the translation. …Was the Qur’an compiled into a volume in the presence of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) or was it compiled later?

ans…The verses of the Qur’an were revealed to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be on him) in the course of 23 years of his life, as and when the events in the unfolding development of the religion of God called for divine guidance. As soon as the Prophet received these verses, he dictated them to his disciples, who not only wrote them down, but also learned them by heart.

There were so many people who had memorized the Qur’an, that we can say that from the first day of its revelation as it were, the Qur’an was in the hands and hearts of the people.

Before the death of the Prophet, the whole of the Qur’an was written down, examined, and verified by the Prophet himself. From that time onwards, it has remained safe from corruption, as several copies of it were in the possession of the Muslims. So it was not possible to make any changes to its verses, even if someone wanted to do so.

Moreover, God has promised in the Qur’an to preserve it, saying what means:

Certainly, it was We Who revealed the Reminder [the Qur’an] and certainly We shall preserve it. (Al-Hijr 15:9)

At the time of the Prophet’s death, a number of the Prophet’s Companions already had assembled the portions of the Qur’an with them into a volume.

full ans here

islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1123996016542

It was during the time of the first caliph Abu Bakr that a leading scholar and scribe of the Prophet, Zayd ibn Thabit, was appointed to compile an official version. After meticulous work, he prepared the official collection known as the mushaf.

One of the foremost reasons for the continued incorruptibility of the Qur’an is that it has been preserved in its original language, unlike the Bible. No one in the Muslim world has ever thought to supersede it with a translation.

Thus, the Qur’an we have today is the same Qur’an that the Prophet received from God. Its authenticity and genuineness, therefore, are unimpeachable.

Dear Muslim Woman,

Forget all those things you wrote down. Please answer a simple question. Why did Uthsman burn the original Quran? How can I determine the validity of your passport (perhaps) just by a word in your passport saying that it is incorruptible???

 

[Sam_777]

How do you know it was burnt?
Any links or ref’s ?

In the time of the third caliph “called Uthman”, he burnt all versions of Quran and kept only one, here is the Hadith for that:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 61, Number 510:
“Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur’an, so he said to 'Uthman, “O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before.” So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, “Send us the manuscripts of the Qur’an so that we may compile the Qur’anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you.” Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, “In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur’an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur’an was revealed in their tongue.” They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur’anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur’an and I used to hear Allah’s Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): ‘Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.’ (33.23)”
(E) (A)

Even some verses of the Quran were eaten by a goat under Aisha (Muhammed’s wife) bed, per this Hadith:

سنن ابن ماجه
لقد نزلت آية الرجم ورضاعة الكبير عشرا ولقد كان في صحيفة تحت سريري فلما مات رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏وتشاغلنا بموته دخل ‏ ‏داجن ‏ ‏فأكلها ‏​

hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=5&Rec=2583

 

[dolphinlove]

Even some verses of the Quran were eaten by a goat under Aisha (Muhammed’s wife) bed, per this Hadith:

سنن ابن ماجه
لقد نزلت آية الرجم ورضاعة الكبير عشرا ولقد كان في صحيفة تحت سريري فلما مات رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏وتشاغلنا بموته دخل ‏ ‏داجن ‏ ‏فأكلها ‏​

hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=5&Rec=2583

This made me laugh so hard, eaten by a goat, thats priceless!

 

[Sam_777]

This made me laugh so hard, eaten by a goat, thats priceless!

Muslim scholars have answers for everything :

"How can a verse of a perfect scripture, which was completed during Muhammad’s lifetime, be abrogated by a goat? As an answer to this question, Ibn Qutayba, a famous scholar, in his book entitled “Solving the Contradictions Among Hadiths” stated that “the goat is a holy animal”. And he asked a counter question: “Why not believe in God’s power? As He destroyed the people of Aad and Thamud, He is also able to destroy His revelations by using even a goat!” "
quran.org/19quest.htm#QUES6

 

[Grace_Seeker]

and about jesus…

According to most muslims… Jesus was not crucified on the cross, and he did not die.

He is still in heaven… and will come to earth before the day of judgement. Some believe he will come with the mehdi who is the messiah.

And this is diametrically opposed to the foundational beliefs of the Christian faith whether you are speaking to a Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant Christian. Hence the impossibility of a synthesis between Islam and Christianity for it would require compramise that neither can make and still be true to their own faith.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

Moreover, God has promised in the Qur’an to preserve it, saying what means:

Certainly, it was We Who revealed the Reminder [the Qur’an] and certainly We shall preserve it. (Al-Hijr 15:9)

Greetings Muslim Woman.

I don’t have a Qur’an handy who are the “We”?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

There is no ‘original’. The Qur’an is an oral recitation, not a book, it was only written down for documentary purposes.

And we know it’s the word of God (not Muhammad) because dozens of people memorised it completely by the time Muhammad (pbuh) died, and there are now somewhere in the region of 10 million people who know it all by heart. Muslims recite Suras from it at least 10 times a day and the whole thing is recited at least once every Ramadan; also whenever someone (say, an Imam) is reciting the Qur’an and makes a mistake or gets stuck, the people behind will correct him.

So the chances of it being forgotten are next to none.

I’m sure they could memorize any book.

That has nothing to do with it being the word of God.