Original Sin (2)

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Edris

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I noticed that there was a previous thread about the Original Sin and too little was said in it for some reason, and i was surprised since you have discussed the Crucifixion in a marathonic thread, yet the Original Sin didn’t last for more than 4 posts. And if i’m not mistaken the main reason behind Jesus Christ’s Crucifixion is to save us from the Original Sin.
I'd like to know the story behind the original sin, how it was committed, by whom (adam or eve, or both at the same time), what is the wisdom behind it, and why was it so important that God's only Son would die to save us from it?
 
Salam brother

I’d like to post Islam’s view regarding Original Sin and I will keep Christianity’s view to Bro/sis Christians:

First, Islam, unlike Christianity, does not teach a concept of “original sin”. Adam’s sin was his and his alone; and, according to the Qur’an (for the Qur’anic narration of the story of Adam and Eve, see: the Qur’an: 2: 30-39; 7; 19; 17: 61; 18: 50; 20: 116-17, etc.), God forgave both Adam and Eve when they turned to God in repentance; accordingly they were once again restored to divine mercy. Hence there is no concept of Adam passing on to his progeny an original sin, and therefore no need for stipulating a redeemer for such sins.

Second, as there is no original sin, every one is born into a state of fitrah, a state of natural innocence; sin is acquired later by our own conscious and willful actions. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Every child is born into a state of fitrah or natural state of innocence.”

Third, Islam teaches that God is All-Compassionate and All-Merciful; He is not bound by the rule of a blood sacrifice in order to forgive His servants. To assume that God can forgive only by accepting a blood sacrifice and therefore to state that Jesus or Muhammad died for our sins is not acceptable in Islam. Allah says: “O My servants who have wronged against their souls! Do not despair of Allah’s mercy! For Allah forgives all sins; for He is indeed Forgiving, Compassionate. Turn to your Lord repentant, and submit to Him before the torment overtakes you when you shall not be helped.” (Az-Zumar: 53-54)

Fourth, Islam teaches that every individual is responsible for his/her own salvation. Not Abraham, or Moses, or Jesus, or Muhammad can save us; they are only capable of saving themselves through God’s grace. In the words of the Qur’an: “Whoever commits a sin commits it only against himself. Allah is Knowing, Wise.” (An-Nisa’: 111); “Allah does not charge a soul with more than it can bear. It shall be requited for whatever good and whatever it has done.” (Al-Baqarah: 286); “Each soul earns only on its own account, nor does any laden (soul) bear another’s load.” (Al-An`am: 164) “He who is rightly guided, it is for himself; and he who goes astray, it is to his own detriment. No soul can bear another’s burden.” (Al-Isra’: 15)

Fifth, everyone, male or female, can directly approach God without any intermediary of a prophet, saint or priest. God is closer to us than our own jugular veins. Almighty Allah says in the Qur’an: “We created man, and We know the promptings of his soul, and We are nearer to him than his own jugular vein.” (Qaf: 16) “When My servants ask you about Me, tell them I am nigh, ready to answer the prayer of the suppliant when he/she prays to Me; therefore let them respond to Me and believe in Me, that they may be rightly guided.” (Al-Baqarah: 186)
So the entire concept of someone dying for our sins is inimical to the Islamic world-view or understanding of the natures of man and God. Islam beckons us all to respond to God’s message and receive His grace and salvation through faith, good works and leading a responsible moral and ethical life."

Salam
 
Hello Edris,

I wrote a bit, probably, on the thread you mentioned, but like you said, it kinda died (because the person that started the thread stopped coming here).

You asked about the origin, I will do my best, in my limited capabilities. But before Original Sin, there was Original Solitude, Original Unity, Original Nakedness…and after Original Sin, there was Original Shame…

I hope you don’t mind, but I will give you some topics based on the events of creation, but I will ask you to read the creation account (at least the first 3 chapters of Genesis) in the light I propose to you…

Keep in mind that there are 2 creation accounts, both are viewed as Word of God. The first account is younger than the second (meaning that the second account was written before the first) One calls God as Elohim and the other YHWH. *When I write MAN it means “humanity” both male and female…and when I have brackets ] it is something I added.

1st account: (youngest creation account) Genesis 1:1 thru 2:3
–God creates the world (but yet not MAN).
–After each day of creation there are 6 days of creation] He proclaims that “It was GOOD”
–When He is ready to create MAN (on the sixth day) He created -MAN in Their own Image, after Their own likeness.
–In the image of God He created him; male and female He created --them. both male and female is the image of God]
–He told them to multiply and subdue the earth and gave them dominion over the living creatures.
–Gave them food all the herbs yelding seed and fruit of a tree that yelds seed. **no animal for it has a living soul] **
****–After the 6th Day God states “…behold, It was Very GOOD”

part 2 in the next post
 
2nd account: (oldest creation account) Genesis 2:4 thru 3:24
  • God creates MAN out of the ground and breathed into his nostril the breath of life, and became a living soul [no mention of gender.]
  • God puts MAN in the Garden of Eden.
  • [God gives ONE Simple rule] Don’t eat of the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, for on the day you will eat it, you will surely die [this is a warning, it is a fact God gives.] But God gives them of any other tree that is in the Garden.
  • The Tree of Life is also in the garden.
  • [Original Solitude]
  • God says that it isn’t good for MAN to be ALONE, God will make him helper fit for him[about 90-95% of the word helper is attributed to God in the scriptures]. God brings each animal to MAN.
  • God asks him to name each animal. And MAN names each animal, but Adam [male-first time a different name in hebrew is used for man, to distinguish him] doesn’t find a helper fit for him.
  • God caused a deep sleep to MAN and took one of his ribs [not something from the upper part of the body to symbolise superiority, not a lower part, to symbolize inferiority, but in the middle, to symbolize equality] and closes the spot with flesh.
  • With the rib, God creates woman [female] and brought her to the man [Adam]
  • [meaning of Original Solitude revealed, partly at least] Adam says: At last, bones of my bones, flesh of my flesh, she will be called Woman for out of MAN she was taken
  • [Original Unity] and [Communion of Persons]
  • There fore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh
  • [Original Nakedness]
  • And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and they were not ashamed.
  • [Original Sin]
  • The snake [the devil who was created by God] tells some truths to Eve [Woman] with a subtle lie. The snake asks a simple question in a sneaky way: Did God say Not to eat of ANY tree in the garden? The woman answers that they are free to eat of any tree, but not the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, nor touch it, for “You will die”. The snake lies:” You will surely not die” Then the snake says some truths:”God knows that if you eat, your eyes will be opened, and you will be as God, knowing good and evil”
  • The woman and the man both ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Their eyes were opened. [Original Sin committed] They didn’t die….or did they as God warned them?
  • [Original Shame]
  • They knew they were naked. They tried, in their own power, to cover themselves with fig leaves.
  • Adam and Eve heard God’s voice walk in the garden [God’s Word is His Voice] and hid themselves.
  • After God calls Adam, Adam responds that he heard His voice, was afraid and because he was naked he hid himself.
  • God asks Him [God already knows, but wants to hear it from Adam] Who told you that you were naked? Did you eat from the tree I commanded you not to eat?
  • Adam [instead of asking for forgiveness] blames God by saying “The woman YOU gave me, handed me of the tree and I ate!”[already a sign of the fallen nature showed]
  • God gives Eve a chance and asks her to say what happened. She blames the serpent.
  • [the immediate effect of the Original Sin is already evident, it isn’t caused directly by God, but by the actions of MAN]
  • [God now puts His curse on His creation]
  • God curses the snake/serpent. God changes its nature, now it will move on its belly [signifying before it didn’t].
  • God puts enmity between it and the woman, and between its seed and her seed; her seed will bruise its head, and it will bruise their heel[the woman seed]
  • God puts a curse unto the woman by multiplying her pain and travail, in pain she shall bring forth children. Her desire will be t her husband, and he shall rule over her.
  • God puts a curse unto the man [and earth]. Cursed is the ground for his sake; he will labor to eat of the ground ALL the days of his life. Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to him. In his sweat of his face he shall eat bread, until he returns to the ground; for out of the ground he was taken. He is dust and unto the dust he will return.
  • [at this point they had covered their nakedness, by themselves, with fig leaves. God clothes them the proper way] God makes them garments of skins and clothed them [animals’ blood had to be spilled to cover their nakedness]
  • God, [because He knows what it really means to know good and evil], removes access to the Tree of Life, or else, they will live forever with this fallen nature.
  • God blocks access to the Tree of Life.
Part 3 in the next post
 
These are highlights about the scriptures describing “Original Sin”, before and after as well. The main point is to notice that “creation” was different before the sin. The results of knowing good and evil can be seen where ever you are. Look around. Before there was no good nor evil. There was only God’s VERY GOOD creation. The need of blood to forgive sins is a truth of Juduism, although since about 70AD [distruction of the temple] they have learned [because of necessity?] that blood isn’t needed to forgive sins, but this concept goes against their Law found in the Torah.

Knowing that God doesn’t lie, a very important point to ponder is : What death was God talking about? As the serpent says, it seems as though that Adam and Eve didn’t die. But if God doesn’t lie, what death was God talking about? You can ponder that question for yourself, but we believe that the death God was talking about is the spiritual death that separates us with Him.

God loves us so much that,

ONE: He allowed MAN to feel the original solitude to be able to discover what will satisfy him(us) [another person like us - Woman]

TWO: He allowed MAN to go through this world(with its good and all the evil) to discover the need to trust and submit our will to HIM.

THREE: After fixing the “spiritual separation (which is DEATH)” Himself, for He was the only one able to accomplish it [Jesus, the Lamb, read Revelation 5:1-13]. He gave us the ability to go back “to the beginning” to be able to ENJOY Him partly. He restored the proper relationship to him [He is our God, our father, our brother, our friend, OUR HUSBAND!]

Finally: So that, on His return He can find His people acceptable to Him. In Glory, He will judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end.

I pray that what I wrote you take it as what I meant it to be. “In time”, it is our hope for salvation, “outside of time” it is our salvation. God’s creation is complete, we just need to submit to it. God’s Economy is complete, we just need to do our part to grow in His Spirit!

Peace,
Your brother,
Luigi.
 
Thanx a lot brother Luigi for what you have written so far it was very informative 👍 ,
by the way, i just finished reading the first 4 chapters of Genesis and it was i have to admit very interesting.
I have many comments of what have been said so far, but i have to go now, i’ll be back later today Inshallah (God willing) to post my comments.
just a small note: please if anyone wants to add or discuss something to what have been said until now please do, but DON'T go off topic. thanx
 
Salaam Brother Giovanni;
I too join Brother Edris to thank you for such an extended explanation. I understand now where our Christian Brothers and Sisters are coming from.
I will also have some short comments, but I too have to go now and Incha’Allah, I will post what I have later on.

Salaam.
Joseph.
 
Peace on all ,
Since brother Gurrato has given us a summary of the Islamic point of view about the Original Sin, I decided to discuss a verse that caught my attention while reading the first chapters of Genesis. And I think it’s still in the subject, cause it talks about Adam, and Prophet Adam pbuh is the one who commited the Sin, so we need to know everything about him.

The verse is (Gen 1:27) So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

I think this verse creates a lot of confusion for both christians and muslims. I was interested in the verse, because we have a hadith for prophet Muhammad pbuh that is very similar to this verse, the hadith says “Allah created Adam on his Image and his height was 60 cubits”, (60 cubits = 90 feet = 27.5meters). First time you read the hadith you’d think that God created Adam on his “own” image (God’s Image) and Adam’s height was 60 cubits meaning that God too was 60 cubits tall. But what the hadith meant was that God created Adam on a Special and Perfect Image, and so all humanity shall have that Special Image, and that Adam was 60 cubits tall but not God. Of all the children of Adam only Prophet Yusuf (Joseph) had the Perfect Image of Adam but didn’t have his height. Now the question is what about the rest of us?. There is another interesting hadith for the prophet pbuh which says "*The Believers will enter Paradise at the height of Adam * *, *on the Image of Joseph * [Perfect Image], *at the age of Jesus * [30 or 33 years old i’m not sure, when he was raised to heaven, and they will stay at that age for eternity] *and with the tongue of Muhammad * [they will be speaking arabic it will be the only language in paradise, which is why God chose it to be the language of the last revelation].
I'm sure the verse was mistranslated from hebrew to english, anywas this translation that i have is a little bit confusing.*
 
In Genesis 3 verses 1 - 6, it’s clear that Eve ate from the tree first after the devil convinced her to do so, while in the Qur’an it never says Eve ate from the tree first, the story is mentioned a number of times in the Qur’an, they both ate from the tree at the same time.
"And indeed We made a covenant with Adam before, but he forgot, and We found on his part no firm will-power. And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves to Adam." They prostrated (all) except Iblîs (Satan), who refused. Then We said: "O Adam! Verily, this is an enemy to you and to your wife. So let him not get you both out of Paradise, so that you be distressed in misery. Verily, you have (a promise from Us) that you will never be hungry therein nor naked. And you (will) suffer not from thirst therein nor from the sun's heat. Then Shaitân (Satan) whispered to him, saying : "O Adam! Shall I lead you to the Tree of Eternity and to a kingdom that will never waste away?" Then they both ate of the tree, and so their private parts appeared to them, and they began to stick on themselves the leaves from Paradise for their covering. Thus did Adam disobey his Lord, so he went astray. Then his Lord chose him, and turned to him with forgiveness, and gave him guidance." (Qur'an 20: 115-122)
 
First of all, I would like to say that I have borrowed/used concepts from Pope John Paul II’s Theology of the body(a collection of speeches he gave over a 5 year period, between end of 1970’s and beginning of 1980’s.

We don’t read Genesis in the sense that “image” is used necessarily like a physical picture. the Image we are talking about is in His “essence”.

If you are interested, you can see this page, which shows talks that a dear priest (Fr. John Riccardo) teaches using the “theology of the body”

In this link here click on the first item titled “In the image of God He created us” There is a beginning intro (1 or 3 minutes) then he will begin with a prayer and then the topic will start.

I hope this helps…

Also, the emphesis isn’t so much that “Eve” ate first, and then “Adam” both ate, but Eve was conned directly, and Adam just followed. But Both ate of the tree.

Peace,
Luigi
 
ohh, forgot…it is important to think about “communion of persons” Male and Female He created them. We believe that the Holy Trinity can be described as “a radical exchange of Love” so that there are not 3, but 1.

Peace,
Luigi
 
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon2.gif Re: Original Sin
God Himself is holy and is the source of all holiness
God is pleased with himself because himself is holy.
When one is holy ,God is pleased and when one is not holy , God is not pleased.

GOd created adam out of love, therefore God loves adam. Love means to give all good. The holiness of God is all good. Since God loves adam, God gives his holiness to adam, this is the original Holiness(also known as sanctifying grace).
Therefore a holy adam is pleasing to God.
Just as GOd is holy, adam is holy, adam in that sense is " the image and likeness of God. GOd said to his ceation that he made holy including adam " it was good".

THe whole person of adam is holy. THe person of adam is made up of flesh(body) and soul.Therefore both flesh(body) and soul of adam are holy.

When adam by his free will personally sinned against God, adam lost his original holiness because holiness and sin are incompatible.Therefore, the original holiness becomes absent in adam, it becomes absent in his flesh(body) and soul.

The absence of Holiness in adam’s flesh(body) and soul is not pleasing to God.Therefore, it is said that at this point Adan fell from grace(favor).Adam now is unholy.

Since the flesh of mankind is generated or begotten or derived from the unholy flesh of adam, the flesh of mankind is therefore unholy, because what is genearetd or derived or begotten from an unholy flesh cannot be holy. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit.

If the flesh of adam is without holiness, then the flesh of mankind who took their flesh from the unholy flesh of adam cannot be expected to be holy. Holy things begets holy things while unholy things cannot beget holy things.

THEREFORE PREMISES ABOVE considered, original sin is simply the absence of original holiness in the flesh of mankind which was originally present in adam.

Therefore , a new born child has original sin not because , he committed a personal sin but because of the absence of original holiness in the flesh of the child. The flesh of the child like everybody is the derived from the unholy flesh of adam…

THe absence of this original holiness is the death spoken of by God. God said " if you eat the fruit you shall die". Also paul said " the wages of sin is death".

Absence of Original holiness caused death to body and soul. the unholy flesh dies to earth and the unholy soul is barred from entering heaven. Heaven is holy it cannot accept unholy soul or body, they incompatible.

Jesus reverses the effect of original sin and because of this jesus is said to be victorious over death that adam caused but this is another topic,… bye now
 
gurrato alaien:
Salam brother

I’d like to post Islam’s view regarding Original Sin and I will keep Christianity’s view to Bro/sis Christians:

First, Islam, unlike Christianity, does not teach a concept of “original sin”. Adam’s sin was his and his alone; and, according to the Qur’an (for the Qur’anic narration of the story of Adam and Eve, see: the Qur’an: 2: 30-39; 7; 19; 17: 61; 18: 50; 20: 116-17, etc.), God forgave both Adam and Eve when they turned to God in repentance; accordingly they were once again restored to divine mercy. Hence there is no concept of Adam passing on to his progeny an original sin, and therefore no need for stipulating a redeemer for such sins.

Second, as there is no original sin, every one is born into a state of fitrah, a state of natural innocence; sin is acquired later by our own conscious and willful actions. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Every child is born into a state of fitrah or natural state of innocence.”

Third, Islam teaches that God is All-Compassionate and All-Merciful; He is not bound by the rule of a blood sacrifice in order to forgive His servants. To assume that God can forgive only by accepting a blood sacrifice and therefore to state that Jesus or Muhammad died for our sins is not acceptable in Islam. Allah says: “O My servants who have wronged against their souls! Do not despair of Allah’s mercy! For Allah forgives all sins; for He is indeed Forgiving, Compassionate. Turn to your Lord repentant, and submit to Him before the torment overtakes you when you shall not be helped.” (Az-Zumar: 53-54)

Fourth, Islam teaches that every individual is responsible for his/her own salvation. Not Abraham, or Moses, or Jesus, or Muhammad can save us; they are only capable of saving themselves through God’s grace. In the words of the Qur’an: “Whoever commits a sin commits it only against himself. Allah is Knowing, Wise.” (An-Nisa’: 111); “Allah does not charge a soul with more than it can bear. It shall be requited for whatever good and whatever it has done.” (Al-Baqarah: 286); “Each soul earns only on its own account, nor does any laden (soul) bear another’s load.” (Al-An`am: 164) “He who is rightly guided, it is for himself; and he who goes astray, it is to his own detriment. No soul can bear another’s burden.” (Al-Isra’: 15)

Fifth, everyone, male or female, can directly approach God without any intermediary of a prophet, saint or priest. God is closer to us than our own jugular veins. Almighty Allah says in the Qur’an: “We created man, and We know the promptings of his soul, and We are nearer to him than his own jugular vein.” (Qaf: 16) “When My servants ask you about Me, tell them I am nigh, ready to answer the prayer of the suppliant when he/she prays to Me; therefore let them respond to Me and believe in Me, that they may be rightly guided.” (Al-Baqarah: 186)
So the entire concept of someone dying for our sins is inimical to the Islamic world-view or understanding of the natures of man and God. Islam beckons us all to respond to God’s message and receive His grace and salvation through faith, good works and leading a responsible moral and ethical life."

Salam
Click to expand...
Okay…here’s my view on Original Sin…
When God created us, there was a perfect harmony between body, soul and spirit. The spirit part which is what we call Sanctifying Grace, which is in a symbolic way of putting it the lifeblood of Eternal Life, was basically killed in the Disobedience of Adam and Eve. Every human being born into the world since then has been born with this defect. Since, the spirit has been affected, the soul and the body was affected as well since the three worked in unison and harmony. Before the fall, sexual desire was contained and more free in humans because it worked in harmony with soul and body. After the fall, the whole thing was thrown off, so now man is now subject to desire, not desire subject to man.
To say that there was no Original Sin is to not only downgrade the importance of Human free will but think about this…if every human being since Paradise was born with this innocence, why has not one person ever gotten it right? Why has there not been one person who has been able to never sin? Don’t say it’s because of the sinful surroundings because that passes the buck on environment and society’s pressures as being the culprit behind why there is sin in the world. We don’t catch it like a cold or peer pressure or something. It’s something inside us. We all have a fallen nature and we all need a Savior…Christ is the Savior…
 
Thank you for continuing my post (I think). Thoughts about O. S. are important especially when talking with Protestants. How we view OS is how we view Jesus and our religion. Hope to learn more about OS during this discsusion.

Peace
 
Hi Edris,

Actually, I only can give you an analogy of what is meant by “Original Sin”.
Original sin is the situation where we, human beings, are separated from God.
The meaning of human creation (Adam and Eve) is to be together with God in a beautiful relationship. That’s why if you read Bible, it’s called,“Imago Dei”, we are created with the image of God.
The fall of Adam and Eve into sin (it’s also in Quran, I believe), makes the beautiful relationship broke. A Just Allah must give punishment for disobedience. But a Merciful Allah promised us a way of salvation.
Then we have the history of prophets came to remind us of Allah and His promise of salvation. And it ends with the given of Jesus, a pure creation (just like Adam). Through Jesus a new relationship is established.

So, in my opinion, the concept of original sin doesn’t mean the sin from doing anything wrong, but the inherited broken relationhip because sin comes into mankind through Adam.

A very simple analogy:
You have a father then you fought with him until he sent you out of your home. You go and marry and have your own family. Then you have children. Do you think your children will have a good relationship with your father? Or do they inherit the broken relationship you have with your father?

Neverland
 
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