Original sin -A blessing in disguise ?

[joseie]

So you’re saying that God put Adam and Eve in a “terrible” situation, and their only way to avoid certain peril was disobedience and sin? I’m in total agreement that we’re better off having sinned and been forgiven than never having sinned at all, because it has brought us into an intimacy with God and a depth of awareness of his goodness that would not have otherwise been possible, but you’ve gone completely sideways here.

Agree with you except that Adam’s action was disobedience and sin.Look again. God’s command was that don’t eat the fruit and that if you eat you will die. That’s all. He eat the fruit and become subject to death.
Can it be called a disobedience and sin?.While going out you tell your child: don’t eat the icecream kept in the fridge or you will get nothing for dinner.Child eats the ice cream .He goes to bed without dinner.Is it a disobedience or sin ? In short my point is that we need not unnecessarily cry about the the so called sin of Adam as it was practically no sin at all .Instead it saved humans from a worst situation that would have arisen had Adam did not do it.

 

[1neophyte]

Agree with you except that Adam’s action was disobedience and sin.Look again. God’s command was that don’t eat the fruit and that if you eat you will die. That’s all. He eat the fruit and become subject to death.
Can it be called a disobedience and sin?.While going out you tell your child: don’t eat the icecream kept in the fridge or you will get nothing for dinner.Child eats the ice cream .He goes to bed without dinner.Is it a disobedience or sin ? In short my point is that we need not unnecessarily cry about the the so called sin of Adam as it was practically no sin at all .Instead it saved humans from a worst situation that would have arisen had Adam did not do it.

Okay then, what is your definition of disobedience? Does it actually exist? Or is it just a word to describe a non-existent imaginary invention, like “unicorn”?

I don’t think we need to cry about Adam’s sin. In fact, we call it “happy” and “necessary” in the Easter Vigil every year. But your line of thinking suggests that we don’t need to have any sorrow about our own sins, which is a dangerous path to go down.

Your ice cream analogy leads me to believe you don’t have children.

 

[grannymh]

Keep in mind though, the book of Genesis came about through oral tradition. So we can never know what truely happend and cannot take it literally. I have more I can say to help clarify things but I do not have time right now. I’ll respond later tis week if i get time.

The Catholic Church keeps in mind that the first three chapters of Genesis came about because the author preserved the Divine Revelation which the descendants of the first human couple taught their children and so on.

 

[joseie]

I just wrote about this on another thread.

And let’s not forget…if Adam and Eve didn’t have knowledge of good and evil, how could they be blamed for doing something disobedient?

And…if God is all-knowing and all-loving, then he would have known that by putting the fruit tree in the center of the garden and pointing it out to them, they will go to it.

Instead of it being an “original sin” or “the fall of humankind”…it seems more like an enlightenment and learning.

.

Yes.My contention is also the same though few agree with us.

 

[joseie]

Okay then, what is your definition of disobedience? Does it actually exist? Or is it just a word to describe a non-existent imaginary invention, like “unicorn”?

I don’t think we need to cry about Adam’s sin. In fact, we call it “happy” and “necessary” in the Easter Vigil every year. But your line of thinking suggests that we don’t need to have any sorrow about our own sins, which is a dangerous path to go down.

Your ice cream analogy leads me to believe you don’t have children.

I didn’t even remotely suggest that we needn’t be sorry for our sins.
Pl.don’t brush aside my poor icecream analogy.If you find on return that the child has not opened the fridge you feel a bit disappointed rather than be happy.If he/she eat it you are never going to be furious and kick out the child from the house for having ‘disobeyed’ your command and committing a ‘sin’.Maximum you may deny him/her dinner if you are very strict on your words.But even a cruel parent may not do this. (I have two children ! ) . Anyhow what I am stressing is that the so called original sin does not appear to be a sin at all if one goes strictly by the narration.

 

[seagal]

I just wrote about this on another thread.

And let’s not forget…if Adam and Eve didn’t have knowledge of good and evil, how could they be blamed for doing something disobedient?

Did you read Genesis at all? They were disobedient because God commanded them not to eat of a certain tree and they did.

And…if God is all-knowing and all-loving, then he would have known that by putting the fruit tree in the center of the garden and pointing it out to them, they will go to it.

This is the essence of free will. God loved us so much that he made us free to accept him or not. If there was no tree, no chance to disobey, then we would be robots with no choice at all.

Instead of it being an “original sin” or “the fall of humankind”…it seems more like an enlightenment and learning.

To go from living in an earthly paradise to being cursed to painful childbirth, toiling and sweating for our food, and losing our immortality. Very enlightening

 

[seagal]

. Anyhow what I am stressing is that the so called original sin does not appear to be a sin at all if one goes strictly by the narration.

A sin is disobedience to God, which is exactly what Adam and Eve did. It’s not how you “feel” about how “trivial” something is. And it’s not at all about just eating fruit from a tree. Do you really think God would oust us from paradise over something insignificant?

 

[youngsterat16]

I’m in total agreement that we’re better off having sinned and been forgiven than never having sinned at all, because it has brought us into an intimacy with God and a depth of awareness of his goodness that would not have otherwise been possible

Sorry i disagree. Only because you cannot know it whether or not it would’ve been possible because it didnt happen. I can see what you are trying to go at but i don’t think sin is better. I would think that we would still have intimacy. Potentially a much more significant intimacy without the weight of sin weighing us down. I cannot imagine what it would feel like because we have never experienced life without sin. But the sin is not a blessing. because if there was no sin, then there wouldnt be any poor souls going to the gates of hell.

The reason why we get intimacy and can see goodness is because God is a loving God and still gives us feelings of wonder and gratefulness and joy. He gives us these. He makes it possible for us to strive to follow Him and not get bogged down by sin all of the time.

I cannot say original sin is a blessing. like i said before its God that gives us the blesings. But God did not create sin. Sin is of the Devil. So saying that original Sin is a blessing is somewhat saying that the Satan is a blessing in disguise. If i go by your reasoning then say commiting adultery can be a blessing in disguise because it can bring someone closer to God, so it is a good thinig that it happened. But the sin is not the blessing. It what God was able to do with it that was the blessing. You could still have a wonderful relationship with the Lord without commiting that sin.

Please dont take my defense offensively. I do see what you are going at but I just want to make you we see both sides of the coin. I think what we can conclude is what a marvelous God He is. What beautiful and glorious things he can make from the evil of Satan. Thats really the bottom line that we are all getting at.

 

[Usagi]

Plus, we wouldn’t have knowledge of good and evil, and that’s a good thing to know. I mean, everyone was punished because Adam and Eve didn’t know and unwittingly ate the fruit.

We do not believe that our First Parents were ignorant or sinned unwittingly. An unwitting sin cannot be mortal, and theirs was THE mortal sin.

And…,would anyone be here at all if Eve hadn’t eaten that fruit?
I venture to think not. I don’t recall Adam and Eve procreating* before* the fruit turning point or knowing what sex was.
I think they were…chaste.

They were given the command to be fruitful and multiply before the Fall. Their first recorded children were after, true, but there is no indication that they knew nothing of sex or would not have had children in their unfallen state.

 

[youngsterat16]

I just wrote about this on another thread.

And let’s not forget…if Adam and Eve didn’t have knowledge of good and evil, how could they be blamed for doing something disobedient? .

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” Genesis 2:16-17

And…if God is all-knowing and all-loving, then he would have known that by putting the fruit tree in the center of the garden and pointing it out to them, they will go to it. .

God gave us free will. We wouldnt have free will though if there were no temptations. He is all-loving and gave mankind choice to eat the fruit or not. without the tree though, the only choice would to obey. which doesnt give us free will. We have free will because without it, would we really be making our own decisions? It would already be kind of chosen for us. Which would make God seem somewhat selfish. which He isn’t, He is selfless

 

[Usagi]

Much is discussed about the original sin that was commmited by Adam.
What exactly was it, why it resulted in such terrible consequences to humans ( for it is taught that evil,sickness, death etc are results of this sin and in order to save the man from this sin transmitted from generations to generations God himself had to take birth in this world ) etc. are still debated . But I wonder why its positive side is not looked into.Just consider this: If Adam had no sinned;
1.There would not have been death which means everybody right from Adam till now would have been alive. What a terrible situation !

As long as there was sufficient space and resources, this would be a wonderful situation, not a terrible one. Is a God that can create a paradise and grant immortality not capable of dealing with population issues?

2.Man would have been naked without any feeling of shame.No question of cloths.Even a more terrible situation!

In the absence of a nudity taboo or the disordered appetites of fallen humanity, why would this be bad?

3.Man would have been absolutely lazy without the need to do or to know any work except plucking the fruits.

Is work innately valuable if it’s not necessary to live? We certainly don’t imagine that Heaven will be filled with back-breaking labor, so what’s wrong with excluding it from an earthly paradise.

4.Since women will give birth without any labour pain ,people will multiply like any thing since labour pain is a significant factor prompting women against conceiving repeatedly . Also no worry about food or clothes !This ,plus no death means an absolutely horrible condition !

Again, not an issue if the problem of space and resources is addressed. You are granting paradise, immortality, and direct interaction with God, but assuming the resource situation will be the same as in our fallen world.

5.We would not have the opportunity to experience the love of our saviour Jesus Christ and to know God through him.

That one I’ll give you. That is why, as others have mentioned, the Exultet calls Adam’s sin a “happy fault.” We do appear to be in a more intimate relationship with God, and are more aware of the depth of His love and commitment to us, than Adam and Eve were. Then again, the story does say that Adam and Eve walked and talked with God, indicating a very close relationship. We don’t know that unfallen humanity would not eventually have been granted the divine adoption, indwelling of the Trinity, and Beatific Vision that we receive or are promised.

        In short ,a view can be taken that Adam did not do that much damage to humans as made it out ,  by commmiting the original sin. The present situation is practically a heaven as compared to the situation arising had Adam not done it.To go a step further can we say that Adam committed the sin (or was he made to commit ? ) for the ultimate good of men ?

No. A sin is still a sin, even if it has good consequences. The Fall was against God’s perfect will (though of course foreseen and permitted by Him), which means by definition it was the inferior outcome.

 

[joseie]

Did you read Genesis at all? They were disobedient because God commanded them not to eat of a certain tree and they did.

This is the essence of free will. God loved us so much that he made us free to accept him or not. If there was no tree, no chance to disobey, then we would be robots with no choice at all.

To go from living in an earthly paradise to being cursed to painful childbirth, toiling and sweating for our food, and losing our immortality. Very enlightening

Living in an earthly Paradise
Vs
Painful child birth,toiling and sweating for food,no immortality.

I will definitely go for the second option if the life in the ‘earthly paradise’ is as pictured in the OP. Of course my option may change if God makes some fundamental changes in living in the paradise such as allow people of more than 1000 years old etc.(who can’t climb the trees) to go to heaven, give some work so that the digestive system functiony properly(atleast watering the trees instead of making the trees to provide fruits on its own) ,some piece of clothing at least to women to invoke some curiosity to men,praying to God etc.
Oh Dear,how thankful should we be to Adam (and also to God for having purposely planted the tree of knowledge,that too in the centre of the Paradise) for our present state.How beautiful is our present life as compared to the other option! As a devotional song says .this life is not all sufficient to express our gratitude to God .

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

Yes.My contention is also the same though few agree with us.

The way I look at it (on my less agnostic days) is that we don’t know what they did, concretely.

And this is just the way the story is told. The story was told so that a meaning could be hung on it. The style in those days was to attribute things to God’s psychology to some extent rather than man’s (this doesn’t apply to all Scriptures though). In any case God thinks long-term thoughts.

They had done something wrong as had those human beings before them.

But every time they restarted there was a new opportunity to spoil the new start. Also with advances in technology things got worse, e.g with the start of the Iron Age warfare got worse.

Each time land shrunk there was a worse and worse scramble for land, hence the need to farm, as hunting-gathering requires lower density. As farming is more work (contrary to what we are usually told), that is why it is said Adam will have to dig and delve by the sweat of his brow,

So one way and another we have had successive falls and this is given as a representative one. That is why they represent the first man and woman. Apparently there is some play between ribs and the concept of life-giving, linguistically.

Interestingly this story is the first time we hear of wife-blaming .

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

… What a mess this is.

Since the fall described is representative of the falls of mankind, I presume it is a convention to mention it before their having children.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

Texts exist in order to support the training in oral transmission.

Talk of ribs is a reminder to slip something in at that point on life-giving (a play on words).

Not only is the Bible narrated as an epic cycle, but traditional catecheses are proclaimed in parallel with it to explain the meanings.

Early Christians being Jews, carried over the essence of the Jewish commentaries to flesh out Christian teaching - Jesus and Paul would have been greatly versed in them anyway.

 

[seagal]

Living in an earthly Paradise
Vs
Painful child birth,toiling and sweating for food,no immortality.

I will definitely go for the second option if the life in the ‘earthly paradise’ is as pictured in the OP. Of course my option may change if God makes some fundamental changes in living in the paradise such as allow people of more than 1000 years old etc.(who can’t climb the trees) to go to heaven, give some work so that the digestive system functiony properly(atleast watering the trees instead of making the trees to provide fruits on its own) ,some piece of clothing at least to women to invoke some curiosity to men,praying to God etc.

My, what a limited view of God you have. You understand that the concept of paradise is perfection, so that none of the concerns you mentioned would exist?

In any case, IMO it’s a moot point. Humans were created with free will so that even if it wasn’t Adam and Eve, someone would have messed up eventually and gotten us all booted out.

 

[mikekle]

1b.). More human life = more minds = more inventions. More invention means more rapid progression.

ICXC NIKA

I agree, just imagine where we would be today if abortion had never happened…close to 50 million additional minds and bodies active on the earth!!!

We have no way of knowing what some of the ideas those people would have had and what it would have led to…Maybe the person that was to stumble onto the discovery of our lifetime was aborted before they could be born…maybe thats why we are living in the type of world we are right now too?

If adam and eve had never fallen, none of the things the OP talks about would matter to anyone, nakedness would just be the norm, just like being fully clothed is for us today, laying about, picking fruit and enjoying our existence and world would be everyones ‘duty’ and no one would think anything wrong of it.

 

[grannymh]

Only the first human Adam

had the possibility of scorning God and therefore shattering humanity’s relationship with Divinity. If Adam had chosen to remain in God’s friendship, he would have remained in the State of Original Holiness aka State of Sanctifying Grace. Therefore, he would be eligible to be in the Presence of the Beatific Vision (heaven). The Catholic Church does not teach the exact steps Adam and his descendants would take to get to heaven. Obviously, they, like us, would have to remain in the State of Sanctifying Grace.

For further information –
CCC 355-356; CCC 404-405; CCC 1703-1732
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

 

[BobCatholic]

In short ,a view can be taken that Adam did not do that much damage to humans as made it out , by committing the original sin.

Adam and Eve screwed up BIG TIME. They only had ONE RULE and they couldn’t even follow that.

The horrific damage, six tons of suffering and pain throughout the millenia are caused by the original sin. This sin caused a ton of temporal punishment to befall mankind.

Not much damage? Please. It cost Jesus the Cross!

 

[GEddie]

I agree, just imagine where we would be today if abortion had never happened…close to 50 million additional minds and bodies active on the earth!!!

:thumbsup:And that’s just this country!

When our final history is written, by some Central or South American Edward Gibbon, they will shake their head that we thought we could erase the equivalent of two major states and not be adversely affected.

ICXC NIKA