Original sin -A blessing in disguise ?

[youngsterat16]

Interestingly this story is the first time we hear of wife-blaming .

Yes, Eve is the one that ate it first but she didnt do it alone. Many people blame her for causing as the start of sin, but adam was actually called to die as a martyr. let me explain:

Adam’s test of love was to lay down his life for the garden and his Bride, Eve. God commanded Adam to tend the garden and watch over it. He was told to guard the garden. If God told him to guard it, that implies some evil threat.

In the english version of the bible uses the term serpent. The actual Hebrew word used was Nahash: meaning a Ferocious/Vicious beast-like figure. A very horrifying, unimaginable, fearsome creature. Satan manifested himself to Adam in a life-threatening manner.

Adam failed to guard the garden: the devil entered and he saw the beast as a life threat and consequently failed to guard the garden and his Bride from Nahash.

Scripture text suggests Adam was beside Eve when tempted, but when Nahash tempted Eve, Adam was silent. Why? He was a coward and didnt stand between the Nahash and his Bride.

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
Genesis 3:4 “Surely if you disobey, you will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman.

Scholars see this as an implied death threat. Implication: “If you don’t disobey God, I’ll kill you.”

When the emperor Nero persecuted the early Christians, he tells them “Deny God and you will not die.” Implication: If you do not deny God, I’ll kill you.

Adam was told by God he would die if he ate of the fruit. He chose is earthly life over his supernatural life. Nahash appears in a threatening manner and threatens that if they did not eat of the fruit, he would kill them. In the old text of the bible, God says to adam if he ate if the fruit he would die die. The words greatest death, worst, etc. did not exist so repetition was used. The worst death possible being hell.

Thus, Adam failed to lay down his life as a martyer. Which is why Jesus had to die the worst death: to be the martyr adam failed to be. Also a reason why Jesus is also refererd as the New Adam.

I don’t know how much this clarifies this discusion or if it even helps at all, but its a very interesting interpretation that not many hear. I don’t think many hear of it anyways. A scholar in theology explained it in a bible study. I think it makes a lot of sense. What do you all think?

 

[joseie]

Adam and Eve screwed up BIG TIME. They only had ONE RULE and they couldn’t even follow that.

The horrific damage, six tons of suffering and pain throughout the millenia are caused by the original sin. This sin caused a ton of temporal punishment to befall mankind.

Not much damage? Please. It cost Jesus the Cross!

Agreed that it did cost damage. But it is absolutely negligible compared to the situation otherwise as pointed put in the OP .However if you still honestly think that living in Eden was better I can only appreciate your noble intentions and innocence .

 

[GEddie]

Agreed that it did cost damage. But it is absolutely negligible compared to the situation otherwise as pointed put in the OP .However if you still honestly think that living in Eden was better I can only appreciate your noble intentions and innocence .

Compared to what? Being alive forever and not having to wear clothes? That would be infinitely better than what we have now.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Vico]

Much is discussed about the original sin that was commmited by Adam.
What exactly was it, why it resulted in such terrible consequences to humans ( for it is taught that evil,sickness, death etc are results of this sin and in order to save the man from this sin transmitted from generations to generations God himself had to take birth in this world ) etc. are still debated . But I wonder why its positive side is not looked into.Just consider this: If Adam had no sinned;
1.There would not have been death which means everybody right from Adam till now would have been alive. What a terrible situation !
2.Man would have been naked without any feeling of shame.No question of cloths.Even a more terrible situation!
3.Man would have been absolutely lazy without the need to do or to know any work except plucking the fruits.
4.Since women will give birth without any labour pain ,people will multiply like any thing since labour pain is a significant factor prompting women against conceiving repeatedly . Also no worry about food or clothes !This ,plus no death means an absolutely horrible condition !
5.We would not have the opportunity to experience the love of our saviour Jesus Christ and to know God through him.
In short ,a view can be taken that Adam did not do that much damage to humans as made it out , by commmiting the original sin. The present situation is practically a heaven as compared to the situation arising had Adam not done it.To go a step further can we say that Adam committed the sin (or was he made to commit ? ) for the ultimate good of men ?

It was pride, so Adam did not sin for anybody but himself, and he was not made to commit it, because he had free will. Secondly, we do not know what the tree of life meant. It could have been that the physical body would become the glorified body by eating from it. There may have been no reproduction in that case.

 

[joseie]

Compared to what? Being alive forever and not having to wear clothes? That would be infinitely better than what we have now.

ICXC NIKA

Some misunderstanding. What I am also saying is that even if some damage occurred due to original sin we are much much better as compared to the situation arising had Adam not sinned. Pl.see my OP(post no.1)

 

[grannymh]

Pardon me.

The Catholic Church considers that the Original Sin is a seriously grave sin against God. As I recall, the word is “scorned”. In easy to understand words – The Original Sin is a Mortal Sin which destroyed the life of Sanctifying Grace in Adam.

So why is that a blessing for Adam???

 

[seagal]

The OP sounds like someone trying to say that war is a blessing because of all the innovations that inevitably come from it. I mean we have war to thank for advances in surgery, sanitation, aviation, not to mention keeping down the population.

If our first parents had not sinned mankind would be living in paradise in intimate communion with our God. All the ills imagined in the OP wouldn’t happen because **it’s paradise! **

 

[joseie]

The OP sounds like someone trying to say that war is a blessing because of all the innovations that inevitably come from it. I mean we have war to thank for advances in surgery, sanitation, aviation, not to mention keeping down the population.

If our first parents had not sinned mankind would be living in paradise in intimate communion with our God. All the ills imagined in the OP wouldn’t happen because **it’s paradise! **

1.Only the conditions in the paradise ,if Adam had not sinned,was mentioned in the OP and not any’ ills’.
2.Even if it is Paradise any thing can happen as already happened.

 

[joseie]

Pardon me.

The Catholic Church considers that the Original Sin is a seriously grave sin against God. As I recall, the word is “scorned”. In easy to understand words – The Original Sin is a Mortal Sin which destroyed the life of Sanctifying Grace in Adam.

So why is that a blessing for Adam???/QUOTA

No scripture support for such a consideration. God said don’t eat the fruit or you will die.That’ll.It is a seriously grave sin ,it will destroy the sanctifying grace etc.was not foretold.
I said that it is a blessing for us ,not for Adam -for the reasons mentioned in the OP(post no.1).

 

[grannymh]

The OP sounds like someone trying to say that war is a blessing because of all the innovations that inevitably come from it. I mean we have war to thank for advances in surgery, sanitation, aviation, not to mention keeping down the population.

If our first parents had not sinned mankind would be living in paradise in intimate communion with our God. All the ills imagined in the OP wouldn’t happen because **it’s paradise! **

May I respectfully point out or perhaps ask a question regarding the descendants of Adam. – Please tell me if the descendants of Adam were true human beings.

Do humans have a rational soul? Perhaps, there is some trouble understanding the rational soul.

Note: the rational soul does not depend on a geographical location such as “its paradise” in bold.

 

[grannymh]

Apparently, there is a bit of misunderstanding regarding God in Genesis 1: 27. Maybe people are ignoring the meaning and “why” of Genesis 1: 27. That is so sad.

 

[seagal]

May I respectfully point out or perhaps ask a question regarding the descendants of Adam. – Please tell me if the descendants of Adam were true human beings.

We are the descendants of Adam. Adam and Eve were the first humans and so every child, grandchild, etc. were and are also human.

Do humans have a rational soul? Perhaps, there is some trouble understanding the rational soul.

Yes humans have a rational soul, we are the only created beings capable of rational thought.

Note: the rational soul does not depend on a geographical location such as “its paradise” in bold.

Since our souls reside in our bodies, I’m not sure what your point is. My point is that man was living in a perfect place. If man had never sinned, we would still be there. If it wasn’t perfect, it wouldn’t be paradise.

 

[grannymh]

We are the descendants of Adam. Adam and Eve were the first humans and so every child, grandchild, etc. were and are also human.

Yes humans have a rational soul, we are the only created beings capable of rational thought.

Since our souls reside in our bodies, I’m not sure what your point is. My point is that man was living in a perfect place. If man had never sinned, we would still be there. If it wasn’t perfect, it wouldn’t be paradise.

My apology. Perhaps I should have started by asking for the geographical location of the “its paradise” in bold.

The point is that the rational soul includes more than the tools used for rational thought. The rational soul includes intellective free choice. What I find interesting about the kingdom of heaven is that it is completely different from the Garden in Genesis 2: 15. In heaven, we are in the presence of the Beatific Vision. It is in heaven, not on earth, where we “freely attain our full and blessed perfection” by cleaving to God. (CCC 1730) Also suggested is Genesis 1: 27 and CCC 355-357. Brave souls can dig deeper. CCC 355-421
From Seagal, post 50
"If our first parents had not sinned mankind would be living in paradise in intimate communion with our God. All the ills imagined in the OP wouldn’t happen because it’s paradise!"

If Adam had not committed the Original Sin, mankind would not automatically jump to the level of heaven. So what and where is the “it’s paradise!” ?

True human descendants of non-sinful Adam would have the same intellective free choice to remain in the friendship relationship with the Divine Creator or to abuse their freedom and seriously mortally disobey God’s command. Currently there are the Ten Commandments. A mortal sin is still a mortal sin.

 

[BobCatholic]

Agreed that it did cost damage. But it is absolutely negligible compared to the situation otherwise as pointed put in the OP .

The “situation otherwise” is we living in the Garden of Eden, no suffering, no pain, and being able to sit and talk with God whenever we want, having actual conversations. And only having to follow ONE RULE.

HOW IS THIS WORSE THAN WHAT WE HAVE NOW?

We now have horrific suffering, pain, God is absent and does not talk to people normally, and lots of rules to follow (10 commandments plus precepts of the Church).

However if you still honestly think that living in Eden was better I can only appreciate your noble intentions and innocence .

Most DEFINITELY living in Eden would be FAR better.

I want to be able to have a conversion with God and only have to follow one rule to make him happy. NOT POSSIBLE NOW!

 

[grannymh]

The “situation otherwise” is we living in the Garden of Eden, no suffering, no pain, and being able to sit and talk with God whenever we want, having actual conversations. And only having to follow ONE RULE.

HOW IS THIS WORSE THAN WHAT WE HAVE NOW?

We now have horrific suffering, pain, God is absent and does not talk to people normally, and lots of rules to follow (10 commandments plus precepts of the Church).

Most DEFINITELY living in Eden would be FAR better.

I want to be able to have a conversion with God and only have to follow one rule to make him happy. NOT POSSIBLE NOW!

While we do have Ten Commandments, they all reduce to ONE RULE which leads us to Heaven (Beatific Vision) after bodily death. That one rule, if you insist on one rule, is based on the difference between Divinity and humanity. (CCC 355-357; CCC 396; CCC 1730; Genesis 1: 27 and following)

Links to the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

 

[grannymh]

Most DEFINITELY living in Eden would be FAR better.

Personally, I prefer living in Heaven with the Beatific Vision.

 

[BobCatholic]

While we do have Ten Commandments, they all reduce to ONE RULE

Don’t eat the fruit of one tree rule versus the rule you say.

Guess which is easier? Clearly the former!

Personally, I prefer living in Heaven with the Beatific Vision.

Me too!

But I’m not there yet.

So outside of that, Eden is better than here on this fallen world.

 

[joseie]

The “situation otherwise” is we living in the Garden of Eden, no suffering, no pain, and being able to sit and talk with God whenever we want, having actual conversations. And only having to follow ONE RULE.

HOW IS THIS WORSE THAN WHAT WE HAVE NOW?

We now have horrific suffering, pain, God is absent and does not talk to people normally, and lots of rules to follow (10 commandments plus precepts of the Church).

Most DEFINITELY living in Eden would be FAR better.

I want to be able to have a conversion with God and only have to follow one rule to make him happy. NOT POSSIBLE NOW!

My God! I thought that everyone would like to live the type of life as present than the type of life in Eden lived by Adam and Eve.(I have already given my preference to the present life with reasons vide post no.35).It is seen that
you have preferred Eden life to avoid suffering and pain and also to have conversation with God.Does it not sound
a bit selfish? Will not suffering and pain earn you eternal life in heaven where you can constantly see and converse with God.Mind you, we are promised heaven whereas no such promise was given to Eden residents.

 

[GEddie]

The OP sounds like someone trying to say that war is a blessing because of all the innovations that inevitably come from it. I mean we have war to thank for advances in surgery, sanitation, aviation, not to mention keeping down the population.

If our first parents had not sinned mankind would be living in paradise in intimate communion with our God. All the ills imagined in the OP wouldn’t happen because **it’s paradise! **

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[grannymh]

we are promised heaven whereas no such promise was given to Eden residents.

Some, not all, Catholics are so busy making up their own stories, they fail to see the truth in the second chapter of Genesis. :bighanky: If Adam disobeying God with Mortal Sin brings the loss of Sanctifying Grace, it should be obvious what obeying God brings to Adam and Eve.