Original sin -A blessing in disguise ?

[joseie]

Some, not all, Catholics are so busy making up their own stories, they fail to see the truth in the second chapter of Genesis. :bighanky: If Adam disobeying God with Mortal Sin brings the loss of Sanctifying Grace, it should be obvious what obeying God brings to Adam and Eve.

Leave alone ‘sanctifying Grace’ with which ,no doubt,Adam and his descendents would have lived in Eden for ever had he not sinned. But now outside Eden,though there is death after a brief period, we are promised Eaternal life not in Eden but in Heaven itself.This is not a coke and bull or a made up story but supported by scriptures. I know that this position could be a bit embarrassing for some who still believes (inspite of my post no.1 also! ) that Eden life would have been better and that Adam committed a ’ most grievous ’ and ‘mortal sin’.(while he was under sanctifying grace).

 

[grannymh]

Some, not all, Catholics are so busy making up their own stories, they fail to see the truth in the second chapter of Genesis. :bighanky: If Adam disobeying God with Mortal Sin brings the loss of Sanctifying Grace, it should be obvious what obeying God brings to Adam and Eve.

It should be obvious that Adam and Eve obeying the Divine Creator would bring them into Heaven because their souls would be in the State of Sanctifying Grace. Provided that they did not commit Mortal Sins. We need to keep in mind that being in the State of Sanctifying Grace did not remove intellective free choice from Adam and Eve.

How Adam, Eve, and descendants in the State of Sanctifying Grace, would have entered Heaven has not been revealed by Divine Revelation.

 

[joseie]

It should be obvious that Adam and Eve obeying the Divine Creator would bring them into Heaven because their souls would be in the State of Sanctifying Grace. Provided that they did not commit Mortal Sins. We need to keep in mind that being in the State of Sanctifying Grace did not remove intellective free choice from Adam and Eve.

How Adam, Eve, and descendants in the State of Sanctifying Grace, would have entered Heaven has not been revealed by Divine Revelation.

Not obvious. Moreover it is against scriptures. God made Eden for Adam and his descendants to live even while there was heaven .If he had not sinned ,God would have taken(after sometime ?when Adam get bored?) Adam and Eve (only two?) to heaven etc.is only a wild imagination.

 

[seagal]

Not obvious. Moreover it is against scriptures. God made Eden for Adam and his descendants to live even while there was heaven .If he had not sinned ,God would have taken(after sometime ?when Adam get bored?) Adam and Eve (only two?) to heaven etc.is only a wild imagination.

This whole thread is wild imagination. Direct disobedience a blessing? As I said before, it’s more a case of God bringing good from evil.

 

[joseie]

This whole thread is wild imagination. Direct disobedience a blessing? As I said before, it’s more a case of God bringing good from evil.

Is it? The matter of the thread is the consequence of original sin.For this is it not necessary to know or try to know the situation if Adam had not sinned? If we find,based on the information available in scriptures that the situation would have been very very worse (including missing heaven as pointed out in my last post) ,had Adam not sinned, should we not consider it as a real blessing ?If that is the case should we not not be thankful to Adam? . Consequently can we not lesson the tone of the allegation against him that he committed a most grevious and mortal sin ? These are no wild questions or imagination pl.

 

[grannymh]

Is it? The matter of the thread is the consequence of original sin.For this is it not necessary to know or try to know the situation if Adam had not sinned? If we find,based on the information available in scriptures that the situation would have been very very worse (including missing heaven as pointed out in my last post) ,had Adam not sinned, should we not consider it as a real blessing ?If that is the case should we not not be thankful to Adam? . Consequently can we not lesson the tone of the allegation against him that he committed a most grevious and mortal sin ? These are no wild questions or imagination pl.

Here is a link to an on line Catholic Bible. usccb.org/bible/books-of-the-bible/index.cfm

Please give the Scripture verses which either support your positions, or explain your positions, or refer to your positions, or imply your positions. Thank you.

 

[seagal]

Is it? The matter of the thread is the consequence of original sin.For this is it not necessary to know or try to know the situation if Adam had not sinned? If we find,based on the information available in scriptures that the situation would have been very very worse (including missing heaven as pointed out in my last post) ,had Adam not sinned, should we not consider it as a real blessing ?If that is the case should we not not be thankful to Adam? . Consequently can we not lesson the tone of the allegation against him that he committed a most grevious and mortal sin ? These are no wild questions or imagination pl.

It is not up to us to level a charge of sin, grievous or not. He sinned against God. God was the one who kicked them out of Eden. Regardless of whether or not conditions now are better than they could have been, they are not what God originally intended for us.

 

[joseie]

Here is a link to an on line Catholic Bible. usccb.org/bible/books-of-the-bible/index.cfm

Please give the Scripture verses which either support your positions, or explain your positions, or refer to your positions, or imply your positions. Thank you.

God after creating earth and all other facilities created man and lodged him in Eden .Every thing was put under his disposal and control asking him to multiply and fill the earth.Do not eat the fruit or you will die implies that he and his descendants will live there for ever ,had he obeyed it(that is had he not ‘committed the original sin’.) .There is not even any indirect hint that it is only a temperory arrangement and that after some time they will be taken to heaven .Hence a contention that they will be taken to heaven (in the obeying situation) is not biblical. That Adam did not have practically any work there is clear from 3:17-19 whereby he had to toil hard in siol to earn food henceforth.
Now the position after the sin:
Labour pain(3-16),hardwork(mentioned above),Death pain and suffering(implied).However God was always with us guiding and showering upon us his grace.I need not quote any verse no.for this.We got opportunities to know more about him.We understood the extent of his love to mankind as he sent his son for redeeming us from sin.He promised us eternal life in heaven (J14:1-3)
In respect of the situation of Eden life without death vs present life with death but with the promise of heaven ,the latter wins hands down . Adam’s 'sin ’ thus produced only good resulted making it not a sin atall.Am I still making any wild imagination ?

 

[seagal]

In respect of the situation of Eden life without death vs present life with death but with the promise of heaven ,the latter wins hands down . Adam’s 'sin ’ thus produced only good resulted making it not a sin atall.Am I still making any wild imagination ?

I vote “Yes” and leave you to it.

 

[grannymh]

God after creating earth and all other facilities created man and lodged him in Eden .Every thing was put under his disposal and control asking him to multiply and fill the earth.Do not eat the fruit or you will die implies that he and his descendants will live there for ever ,had he obeyed it(that is had he not ‘committed the original sin’.) .There is not even any indirect hint that it is only a temperory arrangement and that after some time they will be taken to heaven .Hence a contention that they will be taken to heaven (in the obeying situation) is not biblical. That Adam did not have practically any work there is clear from 3:17-19 whereby he had to toil hard in siol to earn food henceforth.
Now the position after the sin:
Labour pain(3-16),hardwork(mentioned above),Death pain and suffering(implied).However God was always with us guiding and showering upon us his grace.I need not quote any verse no.for this.We got opportunities to know more about him.We understood the extent of his love to mankind as he sent his son for redeeming us from sin.He promised us eternal life in heaven (J14:1-3)
In respect of the situation of Eden life without death vs present life with death but with the promise of heaven ,the latter wins hands down . Adam’s 'sin ’ thus produced only good resulted making it not a sin atall.Am I still making any wild imagination ?

Genesis 1: 27 gives the foundation or reason that Adam is destined for heaven provided that he remain in relationship with the Divine Creator.

It is Genesis 2: 15 where Adam is given the work to cultivate and care for the Garden.

Genesis 2: 16-17 explains the requirement of obedience to the Divine Creator.

Genesis 3: 8-12 is where Adam acknowledges his disobedience against the Divine Creator.

It is Genesis 3: 8 where Adam acknowledges that his Original Sin broke his normal relationship with God. Hiding from God is what happened when Adam committed the Original Sin. Hiding from God means that Adam knows that he freely chose to abandon his friendship relationship with the Divine Creator.

Genesis 3: 24 is interesting because Eden is closed; yet Adam and Eve remain in the image of God.

Genesis 3: 14-19 is interesting because Genesis 3: 15 is interpreted as a promise of a Redeemer. Therefore, Adam must still be in the image of God. Being in the image of God means that it is possible, in the State of Original Holiness, aka State of Sanctifying Grace, that Adam can go to Heaven. Adam’s real blessing–no disguise needed --is that being in the image of God means that he can choose the real Heaven, the real Beatific Vision. Heaven is open to Adam from the first moment of his existence in the image of God.

Genesis 1: 27 is evidence (in the image of God) that it is possible for Adam and any human in the Garden to be with God in heaven forever because the Beatific Vision is forever.

 

[BobCatholic]

My God! I thought that everyone would like to live the type of life as present than the type of life in Eden lived by Adam and Eve.

I had no idea you believe everyone is a masochist. I’m not, therefore I’m horrible.

It is seen that
you have preferred Eden life to avoid suffering and pain and also to have conversation with God.Does it not sound
a bit selfish?

Yes, it is selfish (and horrible of me), that I want to actually relate to God and have a conversation, compared to what I have now - none of that.

Will not suffering and pain earn you eternal life in heaven where you can constantly see and converse with God.Mind you, we are promised heaven whereas no such promise was given to Eden residents.

MY suffering and pain won’t earn anything by itself. Christ’s suffering and pain earned eternal life in heaven where you and I can constantly see and converse with God. I have to unite my suffering and pain to Christ’s Holy Cross in order for it to be effective and store up treasure in heaven. Won’t be worth anything any other way.

HERE on this fallen world, there is no way for me to constantly see and converse with God. Impossible. This is not God’s will for Him to walk around conversing with people.

Maybe you’re right that heaven wasn’t promised - but Eden was the front porch, and God was accessible (versus now where he’s not).

 

[grannymh]

A very tiny comment.
I see God and converse with Him at the Sunday Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. I am Catholic.

 

[joseie]

I had no idea you believe everyone is a masochist. I’m not, therefore I’m horrible.

Yes, it is selfish (and horrible of me), that I want to actually relate to God and have a conversation, compared to what I have now - none of that.

MY suffering and pain won’t earn anything by itself. Christ’s suffering and pain earned eternal life in heaven where you and I can constantly see and converse with God. I have to unite my suffering and pain to Christ’s Holy Cross in order for it to be effective and store up treasure in heaven. Won’t be worth anything any other way.

HERE on this fallen world, there is no way for me to constantly see and converse with God. Impossible. This is not God’s will for Him to walk around conversing with people.

Maybe you’re right that heaven wasn’t promised - but Eden was the front porch, and God was accessible (versus now where he’s not).

O.K.be there in the porch permanently without any pain or suffering waiting for ocassional visit by God whereas we will be here for a short period with pain and suffering but still happy because of the promise of entry inside and be with God eaternally ! Also pl.note that even here we will be in conversation with God through prayers and also could be receiving his grace and love freely. Good luck!

 

[BobCatholic]

A very tiny comment.
I see God and converse with Him at the Sunday Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. I am Catholic.

He actually talks to you? You are blessed.

I’m in the Dark night of the senses (I HOPE otherwise, I"m screwed)

 

[BobCatholic]

O.K.be there in the porch permanently without any pain or suffering waiting for ocassional visit by God

Can’t do that.

We’re here on this broken world, being temporally held responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve.

whereas we will be here for a short period with pain and suffering but still happy because of the promise of entry inside and be with God eaternally !

Where’s that promise?

Also pl.note that even here we will be in conversation with God through prayers

Yes. In heaven. Not here in this broken world, except for those who are exceptionally blessed.

 

[grannymh]

He actually talks to you? You are blessed.

I’m in the Dark night of the senses (I HOPE otherwise, I"m screwed)

God (Jesus Christ) talks to all of us in the beginning of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass when we listen to the Gospel. Jesus Christ gives Himself to us in Holy Communion. The way we might feel does not change either of the above.

 

[grannymh]

We’re here on this broken world, being temporally held responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve.

The Catholic Church is very clear that none of Adam’s descendants are responsible for Original Sin. I may be older than dirt, but I did not commit the Original Sin. If I am going to sin, I definitely want something more fun than eating organic fruit.

By the way, Original Sin is single not plural as in “the sins of Adam and Eve.”

 

[grannymh]

Where’s that promise?

Please see if post 72 works for you.

 

[andrewstx]

FWIT the Mormons think the fall of humanity is a plus or blessing.

 

[youngsterat16]

God after creating earth and all other facilities created man and lodged him in Eden .Every thing was put under his disposal and control asking him to multiply and fill the earth.Do not eat the fruit or you will die implies that he and his descendants will live there for ever ,had he obeyed it(that is had he not ‘committed the original sin’.) .There is not even any indirect hint that it is only a temperory arrangement and that after some time they will be taken to heaven .Hence a contention that they will be taken to heaven (in the obeying situation) is not biblical. That Adam did not have practically any work there is clear from 3:17-19 whereby he had to toil hard in siol to earn food henceforth.
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before tthe bible was translated, the original text used repetition of words to indicate meaning. ex. worst, greater, the most, etc. they did not have words like such so they used repetition. In the original text, God told Adam “Do not eat the fruit or you will die die.” That repetition of die meaning not just an earthly death, but the worst death possible: Hell. Which implies by not sinning, they would not die die but live.

The reason why scripture doesnt specifically say about heaven is because that is not what Adam and Eve chose. They chose the sin so no one knows what it wouldve been if they had not sinned. its an implication.

MORTAL SIN IS NOT A BLESSING! Sins keep us away form God and can put us into Hell. If there was not sin, we needn’t to worry about going to Hell.