'Original Sin' a Legitimate Concept?

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Neither the Jews nor the Orthodox Church believe in original sin. The Roman Catholic Church does, however, leading one to the conclusion that this is an idea invented independently in the West.

Here’s an interesting short article from a Jewish perspective:

whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation5.html

The Roman Catholic Church believes that man was created immortal and that there was no death in the beginning of creation, but this paragraph from the article makes an interesting point:

But think about this logically. If Adam and Eve had to eat the fruit of the Tree of Life to become immortal, then God made them mortal to begin with. Adam and Eve were created in such a way that Death was a natural part of their existence, from the moment of their Creation.

The Orthodox Church has a fascinating view of Roman Catholic’s doctrine on original sin here:

oca.org/questions/teaching/st.-augustine-original-sin
 
From Wikipedia:

Historian Robin Lane Fox argues that the foundation of the doctrine of original sin, that was accepted by the [Catholic] Church, was based on a mis-translation of Paul the Apostle’s Epistle to the Romans (Romans 5:12–21) by Augustine, in his “On the Grace of Christ, and on Original Sin.”

Since Augustine’s writings were unknown to the eastern churches until the 13th/14th centuries, should we conclude that Augustine is responsible for the Roman Catholic doctrine on Original Sin?
 
Fairly certain if there is original.sin, I believe there is, it is pride.
 
Perhaps we should define what we’re talking about before we begin talking about it. For me as an Orthodox, original sin is the doctrine that this world fell into a state of sinfulness and seperation from God as a result of man’s original disobedience towards God. If this is what is meant by Original sin as a basic concept then all of Christianity accepts it.
 
Neither the Jews nor the Orthodox Church believe in original sin. The Roman Catholic Church does, however, leading one to the conclusion that this is an idea invented independently in the West.

Here’s an interesting short article from a Jewish perspective:

whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation5.html

The Roman Catholic Church believes that man was created immortal and that there was no death in the beginning of creation, but this paragraph from the article makes an interesting point:

But think about this logically. If Adam and Eve had to eat the fruit of the Tree of Life to become immortal, then God made them mortal to begin with. Adam and Eve were created in such a way that Death was a natural part of their existence, from the moment of their Creation.

The Orthodox Church has a fascinating view of Roman Catholic’s doctrine on original sin here:

oca.org/questions/teaching/st.-augustine-original-sin
The Tree of knowledge (of good and evil), is the tree Adam and Eve were not permitted to eat from, not the Tree of Life.

Check out the CCC online. It is educational. This is the Catholic’s primary resource.
 
But think about this logically. If Adam and Eve had to eat the fruit of the Tree of Life to become immortal, then God made them mortal to begin with. Adam and Eve were created in such a way that Death was a natural part of their existence, from the moment of their Creation.
Objection: The Church is infallible in regards to matters of faith and morals. However, even if one rejects this truth, Scripture is clear that death entered into the world through sin:
“Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned” (Rom 5:12).
Thus if death came into the world through the sin of Adam -which the Church calls original sin - then before the sin of Adam death was not in the world. How then can one reconcile this with Genesis 3:22-23 which says after Adam sinned:
“Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever” therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden."
You mention how Adam and Eve were created mortal to begin with because of this Scripture; however this is the truth which supports the doctrine of original sin, and is in accord with St. Paul’s Scripture above: Adam and Eve were created immortal, they sinned, thus they lost the gift of immortality and inherited the curse of death, after which God does not want them to eat from the Tree of Life or else in their fallen-wicked state they would become immortal -but immortal in their wicked state. Hence God sends them out of the garden and guards the Tree of Life.
 
Donuts, have you read Kallistos Ware’s understanding of Original Sin in The Orthodox Church? It’s true that the Orthodox Church would object to how Augustine formulated it, but the way Catholics understand it today is far more amenable.
 
Objection: The Church is infallible in regards to matters of faith and morals. However, even if one rejects this truth, Scripture is clear that death entered into the world through sin:

Thus if death came into the world through the sin of Adam -which the Church calls original sin - then before the sin of Adam death was not in the world. How then can one reconcile this with Genesis 3:22-23 which says after Adam sinned:

You mention how Adam and Eve were created mortal to begin with because of this Scripture; however this is the truth which supports the doctrine of original sin, and is in accord with St. Paul’s Scripture above: Adam and Eve were created immortal, they sinned, thus they lost the gift of immortality and inherited the curse of death, after which God does not want them to eat from the Tree of Life or else in their fallen-wicked state they would become immortal -but immortal in their wicked state. Hence God sends them out of the garden and guards the Tree of Life.
The Creator said not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. There are two trees.
 
The Creator said not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge.

They possibly could have eaten from the Tree of Life, but it wouldn’t have made a difference to their eternal state, because they were already made and kept in a holy state.

The Tree of Knowledge was a different matter altogether and this is why satan tempted them to eat from this Tree and not the other (logical deduction).

Read the Catechism.
 
The Roman Catholic Church believes that man was created immortal and that there was no death in the beginning of creation, but this paragraph from the article makes an interesting point:
But think about this logically. If Adam and Eve had to eat the fruit of the Tree of Life to become immortal, then God made them mortal to begin with. Adam and Eve were created in such a way that Death was a natural part of their existence, from the moment of their Creation.
The Church does not say that they were inherently immortal, only that, if they had not sinned, they would have been preserved from corruption and death by a special gift of God. Here’s how St. Thomas Aquinas puts it: “God made man immortal as long as he did not sin; so that he might achieve for himself life or death. For man’s body was indissoluble Not by reason of any intrinsic vigor of immortality, but by reason of a supernatural force given by God to the soul, whereby it was enabled to preserve the body from all corruption so long as it remained itself subject to God.” source

Since Adam and Eve had to follow God’s will in order to be immortal, perhaps part of that included eating from the Tree of Life and abstaining from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Does that make sense? Does it help answer that objection?
The Orthodox Church has a fascinating view of Roman Catholic’s doctrine on original sin here:
First, I think that is a very helpful article toward understanding the Orthodox view of original sin. I especially want to point out this section, where they seem to agree with the part about original sin resulting in death: “In the Orthodox Faith, the term ‘original sin’ refers to the ‘first’ sin of Adam and Eve. As a result of this sin, humanity bears the ‘consequences’ of sin, the chief of which is death.” source – Catholics would agree with that: we believe that too, we just add two additional consequences of Adam’s sin. We Catholics would say that these three things were consequences of Adam’s sin: death, which that article seems to agree with, and also concupiscence, which means a strong desire to sin, and finally a lack of divine sanctity, until we are baptized. That last part is why we need to be baptized in order to get into heaven: we need saving grace to make it to heaven, and a result of original sin is that we don’t have it – not until we are baptized.

Second, while that article is very helpful, it is not the only Orthodox perspective. As other have pointed out, Kallistos Ware is a popular and important Eastern Orthodox thinker who thinks the Church’s doctrine of original sin is more compatible with Eastern Orthodox thinking.

Third, the article seems to say that St. Augustine was not well-known in the East until at least the 14th century. That’s probably accurate from the 700s onwards, but before that I think St. Augustine was well-known because Latin was still understood by many in the East and because he is cited there by very authoritative sources, including the Fifth and Sixth Ecumenical Councils, both of which were held in Constantinople.

The Fifth Ecumenical Council - Session 1 - “We further declare that we hold fast to the decrees of the four Councils, and in every way follow the holy Fathers, Athanasius, Hilary, Basil, Gregory the Theologian, Gregory of Nyssa, Ambrose, Theophilus, John (Chrysostom) of Constantinople, Cyril, Augustine, Proclus, Leo and their writings on the true faith.” source

And: Session 7 - “Moreover several letters of Augustine, of most religious memory, who shone forth resplendent among the African bishops, were read, showing that it was quite right that heretics should be anathematized after death.” source

The Sixth Ecumenical Council - Session 1 - “On the meaning of [these] divine words blessed Augustine, a most illustrious doctor, thus writes in his book against Maximinus the Arian.” [Followed by a paragraph from St. Augustine.]

Fourth, while the article you linked to says that Catholics believe we are “guilty” of Adam’s sin, the Catechism says we are not at fault for what he did, we only bear the consequences: “Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice.” source St. Augustine mentions this too. I wonder if there is a difference in language over the meanings “fault” and “guilt” which may be obscuring things.

Fifth, you may be interested in a book written by St. Augustine where he defends himself from the charge that he invented original sin. The book is called Against Julian and here is a link to it:

St. Augustine Against Julian
archive.org/stream/fathersofthechur013910mbp#page/n6/mode/1up

Some of the most interesting parts of that book, at least to me, are the parts where he defends the statement “In Adam all die,” also the parts where he cites other passages that refer to original sin (such as Romans 7:23 – “I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members.”), and also the parts where he refers to writers prior to himself, including in the East, who discussed our fallen condition. (In case you are interested, I’ve extracted the parts about writers prior to Augustine who discussed original sin and added to them here.)

Anyway, I hope that helps. Please let me know if it does. God bless!
 
The Church does not say that they were inherently immortal, only that, if they had not sinned, they would have been preserved from corruption and death by a special gift of God. Here’s how St. Thomas Aquinas puts it: “God made man immortal as long as he did not sin; so that he might achieve for himself life or death. For man’s body was indissoluble Not by reason of any intrinsic vigor of immortality, but by reason of a supernatural force given by God to the soul, whereby it was enabled to preserve the body from all corruption so long as it remained itself subject to God.” source

Since Adam and Eve had to follow God’s will in order to be immortal, perhaps part of that included eating from the Tree of Life and abstaining from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Does that make sense? Does it help answer that objection?
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm
*
'385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures: and above all to the question of moral evil. Where does evil come from?** “I sought whence evil comes and there was no solution”, said St. Augustine,257 and his own painful quest would only be resolved by his conversion to the living God. For “the mystery of lawlessness” is clarified only in the light of the “mystery of our religion”.*258 The revelation of divine love in Christ manifested at the same time the extent of evil and the superabundance of grace.259 We must therefore approach the question of the origin of evil by fixing the eyes of our faith on him who alone is its conqueror.260…

396 God created man in his image and established him in his friendship.
* A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God**. The prohibition against eating “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” spells this out: "for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die.**"276 The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"277 symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. *Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.'
  • read the first Creation Story which spells out the blessing side.
*'Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to “be like God”, but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God”.279

399 Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness.’*

The answer is to be found in what “eating” represents. In Christological terms, we feast our eyes on the Tree of Life, or we disobediently taste the temporal, spiritually destructive, deceptive and curious pleasures of temptation and disobedience. As you said here:
‘…perhaps part of that included eating from the Tree of Life and abstaining from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.’
So to eat (IMO) would be to choose to partake or choose to steal. To choose to abide in holiness is to partake of life and feast on His goodness. To abide by disobedience is to steal our own death and lose His friendship. In effect. Maybe it means to feast our hearts upon such things for good or bad.

Both Creation stories focus on the requirement and responsibility to participate in all that is GOOD.

OP, Adam and Eve had souls and so were immortal, and were in a state of holiness, until eating the fruit. It was their choice.
 
Neither the Jews nor the Orthodox Church believe in original sin. The Roman Catholic Church does, however, leading one to the conclusion that this is an idea invented independently in the West.

Here’s an interesting short article from a Jewish perspective:

whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation5.html

The Roman Catholic Church believes that man was created immortal and that there was no death in the beginning of creation, but this paragraph from the article makes an interesting point:

But think about this logically. If Adam and Eve had to eat the fruit of the Tree of Life to become immortal, then God made them mortal to begin with. Adam and Eve were created in such a way that Death was a natural part of their existence, from the moment of their Creation.

The Orthodox Church has a fascinating view of Roman Catholic’s doctrine on original sin here:

oca.org/questions/teaching/st.-augustine-original-sin
Well to begin with Adam and Eve never ate from the tree of Life. God told Adam and Eve they could have anything but the one tree.

What happens if we sin? Sin is a death of the soul is it not? Especially Mortal Sin, which is you know you are disobeying the command of God but do it anyway.

Adam and Eve Choose to disobey God, why? Because they wanted to be gods themselves.

I think that if you read the chapter it will make more sense to you.
 
Neither the Jews nor the Orthodox Church believe in original sin.
Nor does the Bible condone such a belief.

2 Kings 14:6 (KJV) But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the Lord commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (KJV) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

God does not hold one guilty/tainted/depraved/unclean due to the actions of another.
 
Nor does the Bible condone such a belief.

2 Kings 14:6 (KJV) But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the Lord commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (KJV) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

God does not hold one guilty/tainted/depraved/unclean due to the actions of another.
The doctrine of Original Sin does not say that we are at fault for Adam’s sin. The Catechism is clear on that: “Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants.” source It sounds like you think we believe We are at fault for committing the original sin, and that’s not what we believe. Do you see why I think that’s concerning, or am I misunderstanding something?

The doctrine of original sin says that Adam lost his holiness and immortality, and could not pass on to us what he did not have himself. His loss of holiness and immortality, and our corresponding lack of those things (lack of holiness at least until we are baptized), does not imply that we are put to death for someone else’s sin and it does not imply that we bear his iniquity. Does that make sense?
 
Nor does the Bible condone such a belief.

2 Kings 14:6 (KJV) But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the Lord commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (KJV) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

God does not hold one guilty/tainted/depraved/unclean due to the actions of another.
You might be looking at prophecies. Looking forward to the NT. When salvation is in reach. Likely, actually. Baptism.
 
Nor does the Bible condone such a belief.

2 Kings 14:6 (KJV) But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the Lord commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (KJV) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

God does not hold one guilty/tainted/depraved/unclean due to the actions of another.
Okay, lets just say I give you this one and agree with you. If you are correct on this saying, that we are all put to death because of our own personal sin, how to you explain the death of an infant?

You are going to have to claim an infant is capable of sin, How is that possible?
 
The doctrine of Original Sin does not say that we are at fault for Adam’s sin. The Catechism is clear on that: “Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants.” source It sounds like you think we believe We are at fault for committing the original sin, and that’s not what we believe. Do you see why I think that’s concerning, or am I misunderstanding something?

The doctrine of original sin says that Adam lost his holiness and immortality, and could not pass on to us what he did not have himself. His loss of holiness and immortality, and our corresponding lack of those things (lack of holiness at least until we are baptized), does not imply that we are put to death for someone else’s sin and it does not imply that we bear his iniquity. Does that make sense?
We do actually bear the consequences of Adam’s iniquity yet each is judged on his own merits. Baptism frees us from the stain of original sin. Though still inclined to sin after.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm

*'THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM

1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."5’*
 
We do actually bear the consequences of Adam’s iniquity yet each is judged on his own merits.
Right. I think there may be a mere difference of language between us, and perhaps not even that.

To my mind, there is a difference between the statement “We bear the sin of Adam” and “We bear the consequences of the sin of Adam.” The first statement suggests to me that what he did is in us as our own fault, and the Catechism seems to deny that: “Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants.” source The second statement seems more in line with what the Catechism says: “The consequences of Adam’s sin for humanity” is the headline for the section on original sin. source
 
Right. I think there may be a mere difference of language between us, and perhaps not even that.

To my mind, there is a difference between the statement “We bear the sin of Adam” and “We bear the consequences of the sin of Adam.” The first statement suggests to me that what he did is in us as our own fault, and the Catechism seems to deny that: “Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants.” source The second statement seems more in line with what the Catechism says: “The consequences of Adam’s sin for humanity” is the headline for the section on original sin. source
You are right. It is just a matter of words. You were right in that it seems to be a loss of higher faculties: ‘It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted’.

So it seems to indicate higher knowledge and reasoning. When eating of the fruit of Knowledge they became in receipt of being able to choose sin. Eternal sanctity does not permit sin and so furthermore one cannot choose sin. But they were given a choice while they were in this sanctified state which would keep them in that state or not. They ceased to be pure in eternal justice. So they lost their eternal sanctification. (As you said). I’d imagine Adam and Even befriending an eternally damned creature that is satan by their choice to listen to him when already in a sanctified state of holiness, a bit like satan himself, committed an error so grave and ungrateful, that their choice sent spiritual tidal waves through humanity. They were always immortal, and as you said, kept in a state of holiness, but chose to take their eyes of that which is good. This choice did not make them mortal though. Mortality doesn’t come into it. Rather, they chose death. Which we understand to be eternal death or death immortal. In the strictest sense. Though I suppose mortal if we say that Hell is hardly immortal LIFE.

We, on the other hand, are made good, but have the stain of original sin, which continues as a consequence of The Fall to bear it’s weight upon our higher knowledge and reasoning, increasing the pressure to act irresponsibility, via our inclinations, our capacity, to be selfish.
 
Neither the Jews nor the Orthodox Church believe in original sin. The Roman Catholic Church does, however, leading one to the conclusion that this is an idea invented independently in the West.
From what I can tell, the Orthodox used to believe in it as we do–it is found in their post-schism Councils, was never a point of divide before the schism, nor a controverted point after it at the reunion Councils–it was never condemned as heresy in the East as far as I can tell. Again, from what I can tell, this doctrine became controversial in the East during their theological renewal in the late 18th to 20th centuries, which involved a rediscovery of Palamite spirituality and the Greek fathers, to the exclusion of the Latin fathers, with an especially anti-Augustinian bent as they sought to break free from their “Western Captivity”, .

Since of course the doctrine of original sin was expounded upon mostly contra the Pelagians, it lost favor during this theological renewal due to being tainted by “Westerness” or Latinity. The Catholic Church accepts both the Greek and Latin Fathers.

That being said, despite being polemically against original sin, I’ve never met an Eastern Orthodox person who claimed that infants were not baptized for the remission of sin or that anyone could be saved without grace, even if they had not committed any actual sin. That’s original sin–it’s effects are more than just physical ailments, physical death, and concupiscence, but, to put it in more eastern language, also deprives us of the gifts of the Holy Spirit necessary for salvation and causes the noetic faculties to be ordered away from God and paradise–the grace of baptism is needed to reorder the noetic faculties so that man can be saved and deified.
 
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