Original Sin And Evolution

[RVP]

The church infallibly defined the dogma of original sin. Pre-requisite of the dogma is the teaching that human race originated from one couple. And this couple as our first parents were in the state of original innocence, were happy friends of God, without sorrow or suffering of any kind in the beginning.

The first couple was put to test by God but failed thru their disobedience. As a consequence of the fall, the couple lost innocence and holiness, and were doomed to sickness and death. They lost God’s grace and friendship.

As a result of the first evil, first man Adam made his body rebel against his soul. Then our nature was corrupted by the sin of our first parents, which darkened our understanding, weakened our will, and left us a strong inclination to evil.

If evolution is true, had God willed only one pair of man and woman to evolve from a certain hominid, then created an immortal soul for each from the moment they were conceived by their hominid parents? Was this pair then isolated by God for a test when they reached the age of reason? Is this how catholic evolutionists will reconcile evolution with the dogma?

 

[RVP]

gottle of geer:

No dogma is endangered by belief in evolution, so belief in evolution cannnot be judged heretical. Unless either

I read this post of yours in the other thread. Can you elaborate it here? Isn’t Original Sin dogma endangered by evolution?

Any catholic evolutionist would mind to comment?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

If evolution is true, had God willed only one pair of man and woman to evolve from a certain hominid, then created an immortal soul for each from the moment they were conceived by their hominid parents? Was this pair then isolated by God for a test when they reached the age of reason? Is this how catholic evolutionists will reconcile evolution with the dogma?

I don’t think there is just one take on it. It’s definitely the big question in theistic evolution. The scenario you described is definitely a possibility.

 

[buffalo]

I don’t think there is just one take on it. It’s definitely the big question in theistic evolution. The scenario you described is definitely a possibility.

or… God just supernaturally created and inserted Adam and Eve in the timeline wherever He wished regardless of what may or may have not been happening in the universe at the time.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

or… God just supernaturally created and inserted Adam and Eve in the timeline wherever He wished regardless of what may or may have not been happening in the universe at the time.

Another one that I personally like is that the Garden of Eden was actually in another place/time/realm and when man and woman sinned, we were expelled from that paradise and forced to come live a life here on earth, in this imperfect world governed by physics and biology.

 

[MH84]

The church infallibly defined the dogma of original sin. Pre-requisite of the dogma is the teaching that human race originated from one couple. And this couple as our first parents were in the state of original innocence, were happy friends of God, without sorrow or suffering of any kind in the beginning.

The first couple was put to test by God but failed thru their disobedience. As a consequence of the fall, the couple lost innocence and holiness, and were doomed to sickness and death. They lost God’s grace and friendship.

As a result of the first evil, first man Adam made his body rebel against his soul. Then our nature was corrupted by the sin of our first parents, which darkened our understanding, weakened our will, and left us a strong inclination to evil.

If evolution is true, had God willed only one pair of man and woman to evolve from a certain hominid, then created an immortal soul for each from the moment they were conceived by their hominid parents? Was this pair then isolated by God for a test when they reached the age of reason? Is this how catholic evolutionists will reconcile evolution with the dogma?

I want to know, if the Genesis can be taken more figuratively than some of the other books, why was it so important for Pope Pius XII to say that we must believe that the first humans were Adam and Eve (two people), as opposed to a group or many humans being infused with immortal souls. Why would the latter be wrong?

 

[MH84]

Another one that I personally like is that the Garden of Eden was actually in another place/time/realm and when man and woman sinned, we were expelled from that paradise and forced to come live a life here on earth, in this imperfect world governed by physics and biology.

Like Mars?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Like Mars?

LOL, I was thinking more like “paradise”

 

[RVP]

I want to know, if the Genesis can be taken more figuratively than some of the other books, why was it so important for Pope Pius XII to say that we must believe that the first humans were Adam and Eve (two people), as opposed to a group or many humans being infused with immortal souls. Why would the latter be wrong?

If you know well your faith, and you are a true son of the church, you won’t accept polygenism because mongenism or the belief that we came from a single pair is pre requisite of the dogma of original sin. A good catholic cannot question a dogma without becoming a heretic.

 

[MH84]

If you know well your faith, and you are a true son of the church, you won’t accept polygenism because mongenism or the belief that we came from a single pair is pre requisite of the dogma of original sin. A good catholic cannot question a dogma without becoming a heretic.

ooo…sorry. Looks like we have an inquisitor here.

I was just asking why Original Sin couldnt have occurred in a community for example.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

ooo…sorry. Looks like we have an inquisitor here.

I was just asking why Original Sin couldnt have occurred in a community for example.

The Church has asked us to limit our ‘brainstorming’ to just one original couple. It didn’t say that its absolutely necessarily true that it started with one couple, but for now we have this limitation put on us. It’s from a papal encyclical issued in the 1950’s.

 

[MH84]

The Church has asked us to limit our ‘brainstorming’ to just one original couple. It didn’t say that its absolutely necessarily true that it started with one couple, but for now we have this limitation put on us. It’s from a papal encyclical issued in the 1950’s.

I thought that it has been decided. Could you explain what you mean by the bold text, because it looks like you are saying something different. Do you mean that the those who committed the first sin may not have been the first human beings? Please explain.

 

[Jeanette_L]

Another one that I personally like is that the Garden of Eden was actually in another place/time/realm and when man and woman sinned, we were expelled from that paradise and forced to come live a life here on earth, in this imperfect world governed by physics and biology.

LOL, I was thinking more like “paradise”

I like…

Why does the garden have to have been in this realm of space and time? I never really thought about that, not concretely anyway, although reading a lot of CS Lewis lends to this.

This is worth chewing on.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I thought that it has been decided. Could you explain what you mean by the bold text, because it looks like you are saying something different. Do you mean that the those who committed the first sin may not have been the first human beings? Please explain.

Well, here’s the exact quote from Humani Generis:

1. When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is no no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.[12]

I read that as not being a very strong condemnation of the idea. It wasn’t apparent to Pius XII that it could be reconciled… but it sounds to me like he left the door open to some extent.

 

[MH84]

Well, here’s the exact quote from Humani Generis:

I read that as not being a very strong condemnation of the idea. It wasn’t apparent to Pius XII that it could be reconciled… but it sounds to me like he left the door open to some extent.

So the “Adam” of the bible could be made up of two or more persons? One that was first born with an immortal soul, and another which committed the original sin. Or am I reading too much into it?

 

[RVP]

Well, here’s the exact quote from Humani Generis:
.

When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is no no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own

I read that as not being a very strong condemnation of the idea. It wasn’t apparent to Pius XII that it could be reconciled… but it sounds to me like he left the door open to some extent.

What happen to your comprenhension Neil? The quote strongly condemned polygenism in black and white. The pope strongly said the children of God by no means have the freedom to believe in polygenism without betraying his faith.

[/QUOTE]

 

[RVP]

The pope was very clear and conditional that whenever the opinion of man’s body to have originated from pre-existing matter is entertained, theologians must reject polygenism and accept monogenism. Otherwise, evolution would be incompatible to the faith and should be rejected as such.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

So the “Adam” of the bible could be made up of two or more persons? One that was first born with an immortal soul, and another which committed the original sin. Or am I reading too much into it?

Uh oh. The pope said we are not free to speculate about Adam and Eve being more than two people. I just don’t think he closed the door completely on a future pope allowing such speculation.