Original Sin and Ezekiel 18

[J1Priest]

Debating Original Sin someone brought up Ez 18:19-21.
Seemingly this clearly refutes Original Sin.

Here was my response, but I’d like to get better responses that I can give:

In your next claim you bring an interesting point in quoting Ez 18:20-21 (v. 19 as well).
It may seem contradictory to my proposition of Original Sin, but I will show that it is not. When we read the whole chapter in context, we see that Ezekiel is giving a proverb “The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge” (v. 2) and the Lord disagrees with this proverb as well as with this one, “Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?” (v. 19a). Then we see God contradicting Ezekiel’s message and saying that the son will not pay for the sins committed by the father.
Here is where your interpretation falls, in the earlier passages we see various example of a father doing different sins. Ezekiel proposes that the son will suffer because of those sins. Now notice that both God and Ezekiel are talking about the iniquities/sins of the immediate father, Adam is never alluded to. We see that these sins are the ones that the parent (not ancestor) committed, and that the child will not suffer unless the child, too, commits those sins.
www.myspace.com/imapologetics​

Thank you for your thoughts on this.

God bless

 

[Della]

A good scriptural defense, J1Priest, but the person has a basic misunderstanding of what original sin and isn’t, so quote him this from the CCC:

405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

 

[J1Priest]

Thank you for that clarification, I hope it helps her as much as it has been helping me.

And yeah, this time is a her, and I read her profile and she’s Muslim, in a private note I asked her to keep centered in the Bible, haha.

God bless

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Jeremiah 31:27-34

27 “The days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will plant the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the offspring of men and of animals. 28 Just as I watched over them to uproot and tear down, and to overthrow, destroy and bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant,” declares the LORD. 29 "In those days people will no longer say,
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’

30 Instead, everyone will die for his own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—his own teeth will be set on edge.

31 “The time is coming,” declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them, "
declares the LORD.

33 “This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time,” declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

Footnotes:

Jeremiah 31:32 Hebrew; Septuagint and Syriac / and I turned away from
Jeremiah 31:32 Or was their master

Hebrews 8

1The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man.
3Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already men who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”[a] 6But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.

7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said**:
“The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

13By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.**

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Ezekiel 18

1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:
" ‘The fathers eat sour grapes,
and the children’s teeth are set on edge’?
3 "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son—both alike belong to me. **The soul who sins is the one who will die. **

5 "Suppose there is a righteous man
who does what is just and right.

6 He does not eat at the mountain shrines
or look to the idols of the house of Israel.
He does not defile his neighbor’s wife
or lie with a woman during her period.

7 He does not oppress anyone,
but returns what he took in pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked.

8 He does not lend at usury
or take excessive interest. [a]
He withholds his hand from doing wrong
and judges fairly between man and man.

9 He follows my decrees
and faithfully keeps my laws.
That man is righteous;
he will surely live,
declares the Sovereign LORD.

10 "Suppose he has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these other things 11 (though the father has done none of them):
"He eats at the mountain shrines.
He defiles his neighbor’s wife.

12 He oppresses the poor and needy.
He commits robbery.
He does not return what he took in pledge.
He looks to the idols.
He does detestable things.

13 He lends at usury and takes excessive interest.
Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he will surely be put to death and his blood will be on his own head.

14 "But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things:

15 "He does not eat at the mountain shrines
or look to the idols of the house of Israel.
He does not defile his neighbor’s wife.

16 He does not oppress anyone
or require a pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked.

17 He withholds his hand from sin
and takes no usury or excessive interest.
He keeps my laws and follows my decrees.
**He will not die for his father’s sin; he will surely live. **18 But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people.

19 "Yet you ask, ‘Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20** The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son.** The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

25 "Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. 27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. …
30 "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

 

[Della]

Thank you for that clarification, I hope it helps her as much as it has been helping me.

There are a lot of Christians, Catholics included, who don’t know what original sin is and what it isn’t, so it isn’t surprising a Muslim would be clueless, who hasn’t studied Catholic teaching.

And yeah, this time is a her, and I read her profile and she’s Muslim, in a private note I asked her to keep centered in the Bible, haha.

God bless

Why advise her to “keep centered in the Bible”? It is not the sum of our faith, but merely one part of Sacred Tradition. Without the whole of Sacred Tradition the Bible alone doesn’t tell us enough nor does it speak for itself. We all need the Magisterium to help us, Christian and non-Christian alike, interpret its meaning. Yes?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Debating Original Sin someone brought up Ez 18:19-21.
Seemingly this clearly refutes Original Sin.

Here was my response, but I’d like to get better responses that I can give:

In your next claim you bring an interesting point in quoting Ez 18:20-21 (v. 19 as well).
It may seem contradictory to my proposition of Original Sin, but I will show that it is not. When we read the whole chapter in context, we see that Ezekiel is giving a proverb “The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge” (v. 2) and the Lord disagrees with this proverb as well as with this one, “Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?” (v. 19a). Then we see God contradicting Ezekiel’s message and saying that the son will not pay for the sins committed by the father.
Here is where your interpretation falls, in the earlier passages we see various example of a father doing different sins. Ezekiel proposes that the son will suffer because of those sins. Now notice that both God and Ezekiel are talking about the iniquities/sins of the immediate father, Adam is never alluded to. We see that these sins are the ones that the parent (not ancestor) committed, and that the child will not suffer unless the child, too, commits those sins.
www.myspace.com/imapologetics​

Thank you for your thoughts on this.

God bless

It is gigantically irrelevant to OS ​

It’s talking about personal responsibility, & saying that men are responsible for their own sins - it’s correcting the OT idea that the sins of fathers will be visited on the sons, on their sons, & on the sons of those sons in turn.

OS is the sin of only one man - Adam.

OS in his descendants is like the disabilities of the child of a man poisoned by radiation - the man suffered the poisoning, the baby is born with no eyes or limbs; whereas the father has both eyes & limbs.

Adam sinned - we were “in” him, so his guilt affects us. If he were not the father of all future men, that would not be so. His is the sin & the guilt & its results - ours are the results. So because he separated himself from God, we are separated from God, until we are united with Him by the atoning (= “at-one-ing”) work of Christ. So even if he is frying in Hell, his descendants don’t need to - the grace of Christ the Last Adam saves from the curse & penalty the first & wicked Adam has bequeathed us.