Original Sin and the BVM question

[PoorKnight]

In speaking to a non-denom fundimentalist, he raised the question if Mary was created sinless because Christ takes on her flesh, what about St. Anne and St. Joachim were they sinless as well? I simply don’t know. I sometimes use the “flesh is born of flesh” and “good fruit cannot come from a bad tree” to help with the principal of Mary being sinless. Is that a errant approach and what should I respond?

Secondly I’m working on his belief that to be “holy” or “sinless” equates being God. I’ve told him that those are aspects of God but they do not equal God in and of themselves. He asked me to name one other person who has one of God’s aspects perfectly. I couldn’t answer, but have since thought the Apostles and God giving them the ability to forgive sin. Any thoughts?

Sorry this is kind-of scatter brained, I’m typing it quick with three kids running around screaming and messing up the house.

Thank you and God Bless

 

[bzkoss236]

In speaking to a non-denom fundimentalist, he raised the question if Mary was created sinless because Christ takes on her flesh, what about St. Anne and St. Joachim were they sinless as well? I simply don’t know. I sometimes use the “flesh is born of flesh” and “good fruit cannot come from a bad tree” to help with the principal of Mary being sinless. Is that a errant approach and what should I respond?

Secondly I’m working on his belief that to be “holy” or “sinless” equates being God. I’ve told him that those are aspects of God but they do not equal God in and of themselves. He asked me to name one other person who has one of God’s aspects perfectly. I couldn’t answer, but have since thought the Apostles and God giving them the ability to forgive sin. Any thoughts?

Sorry this is kind-of scatter brained, I’m typing it quick with three kids running around screaming and messing up the house.

Thank you and God Bless

1. Mary’s parents were born into sin (Original Sin) and did/could sin, but because of the specific role that Mary was to take on, she was preserved from sin at her conception, to make her an appropriate vessel to hold Christ as he grew in her womb.
2. Remind him that Adam and Eve were created without sin, and they were obviously not God. And, those who are forgiven of sin, it is said that God “forgets” their sins, so it is as if they have never sinned, meaning that when God forgives someone’s sins, they become sinless. In both of these circumstances, these people are not God, nor are they equal to God.

 

[mymamamary]

**Our LORD applied the fruits of HIS Redemption before redemption happened, specifically to Our Lady. Nothing Impure is worthy of GOD. **

 

[aemcpa]

In speaking to a non-denom fundimentalist, he raised the question if Mary was created sinless because Christ takes on her flesh, what about St. Anne and St. Joachim were they sinless as well? I simply don’t know. I sometimes use the “flesh is born of flesh” and “good fruit cannot come from a bad tree” to help with the principal of Mary being sinless. Is that a errant approach and what should I respond?

Secondly I’m working on his belief that to be “holy” or “sinless” equates being God. I’ve told him that those are aspects of God but they do not equal God in and of themselves. He asked me to name one other person who has one of God’s aspects perfectly. I couldn’t answer, but have since thought the Apostles and God giving them the ability to forgive sin. Any thoughts?

Sorry this is kind-of scatter brained, I’m typing it quick with three kids running around screaming and messing up the house.

Thank you and God Bless

Being “sinless” is not an attribute of God, since sin is defined in reference to God’s will. God is all-holy.

Eve was created without original sin, so it is not inconceivable that Mary could be as well. And every sin is an act of free will, so there is nothing in human nature that prevents any person from being entirely sinless. The fact is that God chose to preserve his own mother from the stain of original sin by a singular privilege. He did not have to do it, but it was fitting, and He was able, so He did it.

 

[Texsain]

Secondly I’m working on his belief that to be “holy” or “sinless” equates being God.

I haven’t been following my apologetics newsletters, forums, etc. in a while. Now in the past week I’ve run across some of the most ridiculous statements I’ve ever read. This is one of them. If I understand you right, he’s saying being sinless is…a bad thing for us??? So I suppose we shouldn’t strive for perfect holiness, lest I become too much like God from this point on. Well, Jesus tells me otherwise (Mt. 5:48).

As far as your other question, do Mary’s parents need to be sinless, and their parents, and so on? No. We must think of Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant. For the old covenant, the Ark held the word (Ten Commandments) and the bread (Manna). It was very holy and had to be built perfectly, but it was built by imperfect people. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant who bore Jesus who is the Word (Jn 1) and Bread of Life (Jn 6). Thus, if a box who holds the lesser goods needs to be perfect, how much more so the person who holds the greatest good! Likewise, though, just as the old ark was built by imperfect men, so can Mary be carried in the womb of an imperfect woman. Thus it was not necessary for Sts. Anne and Joachim to be sinless.

 

[grannymh]

1. Mary’s parents were born into sin (Original Sin) and did/could sin, but because of the specific role that Mary was to take on, she was preserved from sin at her conception, to make her an appropriate vessel to hold Christ as he grew in her womb.
2. Remind him that Adam and Eve were created without sin, and they were obviously not God. And, those who are forgiven of sin, it is said that God “forgets” their sins, so it is as if they have never sinned, meaning that when God forgives someone’s sins, they become sinless. In both of these circumstances, these people are not God, nor are they equal to God.

Regarding the phrase “born into sin (Original Sin)”. From a Catholic point of view, one is not “born” into any kind of sin. Original Sin is a contracted state which is transmitted by propagation, i.e., conception. As a result of Adam’s sin, human nature is transmitted deprived of original holiness and justice. For vocabulary, please refer to paragraphs 404-405, Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.

 

[Mariem2]

I have a question about this. I understand Church teaching about the Immaculate Conception. If I remember correctly my Catechism from childhood, the effects of original sin are: “our intellect is darkened, our will is weakened, our passions incline us to evil, and we are subject to suffering and death”.

My question is: If death (I was taught actual death as well as the damnation of our everlasting souls) is a result of original sin and Mary was free from original sin, how could Mary have died a mortal death? I was taught that she didn’t die and was assumed into heaven when her time on earth was done. Catholics.com says this:

The Church has never formally defined whether she died or not, and the integrity of the doctrine of the Assumption would not be impaired if she did not in fact die, but the almost universal consensus is that she did die. Pope Pius XII, in Munificentissimus Deus (1950), defined that Mary, “after the completion of her earthly life” (note the silence regarding her death), “was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven.”.

Why hasn’t the Church formally defined whether Mary died or not? I’m not asking this to be a smarty pants. I had seen a reference to Mary’s death at the site near Ephesus where it is claimed she spent her old age. I had believed that reference to be a mistake, so was a bit shocked to read the above paragraph on Catholics.com. I hope my question makes sense and I would really appreciate some help in understanding this.

 

[Texsain]

I have a question about this. I understand Church teaching about the Immaculate Conception. If I remember correctly my Catechism from childhood, the effects of original sin are: “our intellect is darkened, our will is weakened, our passions incline us to evil, and we are subject to suffering and death”.

My question is: If death (I was taught actual death as well as the damnation of our everlasting souls) is a result of original sin and Mary was free from original sin, how could Mary have died a mortal death? I was taught that she didn’t die and was assumed into heaven when her time on earth was done. Catholics.com says this:

The Church has never formally defined whether she died or not, and the integrity of the doctrine of the Assumption would not be impaired if she did not in fact die, but the almost universal consensus is that she did die. Pope Pius XII, in Munificentissimus Deus (1950), defined that Mary, “after the completion of her earthly life” (note the silence regarding her death), “was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven.”.

Why hasn’t the Church formally defined whether Mary died or not? I’m not asking this to be a smarty pants. I had seen a reference to Mary’s death at the site near Ephesus where it is claimed she spent her old age. I had believed that reference to be a mistake, so was a bit shocked to read the above paragraph on Catholics.com. I hope my question makes sense and I would really appreciate some help in understanding this.

I’ve wondered this myself. I don’t think that Mary actually died because of the reasons you’ve stated. But I don’t lose sleep at night over it. I just remember that Jesus was sinless and still died for us…though I know that the two are really quite different subjects.

 

[sw85]

In speaking to a non-denom fundimentalist, he raised the question if Mary was created sinless because Christ takes on her flesh, what about St. Anne and St. Joachim were they sinless as well? I simply don’t know. I sometimes use the “flesh is born of flesh” and “good fruit cannot come from a bad tree” to help with the principal of Mary being sinless. Is that a errant approach and what should I respond?

The tendency is to see original sin as a “thing,” when it isn’t, it’s a privation of a thing. To say “he was born with original sin” is simply to say “he was born without preternatural/supernatural gifts of integrity, infused knowledge, sanctifying grace, etc.” Mary was born with these things. Since they are gifts from God, they don’t “come from” one’s parents. They come from God.

Secondly I’m working on his belief that to be “holy” or “sinless” equates being God. I’ve told him that those are aspects of God but they do not equal God in and of themselves. He asked me to name one other person who has one of God’s aspects perfectly. I couldn’t answer, but have since thought the Apostles and God giving them the ability to forgive sin. Any thoughts?

Sorry this is kind-of scatter brained, I’m typing it quick with three kids running around screaming and messing up the house.

Thank you and God Bless

Holiness is God-likeness. The holier you are, the more closely figured to God you are. No human being is perfectly holy; even the saints were wretched sinners on earth.

 

[Ad_Orientem]

If death is a result of original sin and Mary was free from original sin, how could Mary have died a mortal death?

Fr. Lawrence Everett, C.Ss.R., S.T.D. has put together an interesting and scholarly discussion of this question. Some excerpts:

St. Andrew of Crete (d. 720) . . . states . . . that Mary died because her Son died.[12] The same is true of a similar teaching of St. John Damascene (d. 749).[13] . . . All theologians agree, of course, that Mary was not subject to death as a penalty for sin. However, God willed that “she die for higher reasons pertaining to her relationship with Christ and the part she was to play in the work of Redemption.”[24] . . . [One theory states that] she died not as a penalty for sin but pro conditione carnis. . . .

 

[Mariem2]

I’ve wondered this myself. I don’t think that Mary actually died because of the reasons you’ve stated. But I don’t lose sleep at night over it. I just remember that Jesus was sinless and still died for us…though I know that the two are really quite different subjects.

I won’t be losing any sleep either. It bothered me because there was no doubt in my mind yet the Church was uncertain. I remember feeling so superior at Ephesus when they told us they hadn’t found Mary’s tomb, thinking to myself “As if she needed a tomb when she didn’t die”. I thought they were pussyfooting around it because it’s a holy place for Muslims as well as Catholics.

Fr. Lawrence Everett, C.Ss.R., S.T.D. has put together an interesting and scholarly discussion of this question. Some excerpts:

St. Andrew of Crete (d. 720) . . . states . . . that Mary died because her Son died.[12] The same is true of a similar teaching of St. John Damascene (d. 749).[13] . . . All theologians agree, of course, that Mary was not subject to death as a penalty for sin. However, God willed that “she die for higher reasons pertaining to her relationship with Christ and the part she was to play in the work of Redemption.”[24] . . . [One theory states that] she died not as a penalty for sin but pro conditione carnis. . . .

Thank you. Since it won’t make me a heretic, I’ve decided to stick to my belief that Mary didn’t die, but she could have just fallen asleep as some have suggested.