Original sin is unexplainable

[FMX500]

Re: Original sin;

Originally Posted by FMX500
As you say, so much is there to lift us up, yet you have to think; what was able to pull us down far enough that we had to be lifted up at all? …only what God allowed, of course.

If what Adam and Eve did has anything thing to do with me then christianity must in some way believe in reincarnation.

In other words; I did not pick fruit from that tree.

 

[mdrummer5]

If what Adam and Eve did has anything thing to do with me then christianity must in some way believe in reincarnation.

In other words; I did not pick fruit from that tree.

I’m not an expert but the way I understand it, original sin in no way tries to implicate modern man in the eating of the fruit. It says that because of that mankind as a whole fell from the grace of God much like Jesus died for all of mankind even though we weren’t born when he did.

Edit: Don’t consider it akin to reincarnation (though I see the logic) so much as the passing of a genetic deficiency or disease.

 

[Della]

Re: Original sin;

If what Adam and Eve did has anything thing to do with me then christianity must in some way believe in reincarnation.

In other words; I did not pick fruit from that tree.

If this is what you think, then I have good news for you–it’s not true. We are not under a curse because of the personal sin of Adam and Eve or anyone else. Many people think that’s the case, but it’s because they have a faulty understanding of the results of Adam and Eve’s sin.

What happened is simply that by being disobedient, Adam and Eve LOST saving grace. God had intended they should live forever (hence he supplied them with the Tree of Life), but they chose to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, which was forbidden to them. When they did that they LOST the life God had intended and they LOST three intrinsic attributes we humans cannot regain except through God’s grace:

They lost (and we as their descendant lost–you can’t pass on what you don’t have) an unsullied will, unsullied ability to understand, and the unsullied desire to do what is right–all three have been “darkened” in us, like turning off the lights. All of us have failed in these areas to greater and lesser degrees because we are wounded and in need of healing. We are “stained” with original sin not guilty of actual sin at birth, so you can’t be punished for grabbing the “apple” since you didn’t do that, but you don’t have the ability to always know if the “apple” in front of you is good or not, the unsullied will to not take it if it isn’t or the unsullied desire to resist if you want it anyway–it’s why humanity is in the mess it’s in and will be until the end of time. Adam and Eve did know the difference, had the ability to fully understand, and could have desired to do the right thing, but took it anyway–so they were deliberately disobedient. No one can accidentally or by mere birth commit sin.

Baptism removes the stain of original sin, but we are still wounded and in need of the only remedy–God’s grace. This we receive primarily, but not exclusively, through the sacraments Christ established.

 

[FMX500]

I’m not an expert but the way I understand it, original sin in no way tries to implicate modern man in the eating of the fruit.

Hmm, of course it does. What else makes me a sinner for no reason?

It says that because of that mankind **as a whole **fell from the grace of God

…you see, but how?

much like Jesus died for all of mankind even though we weren’t born when he did.

That much makes sense, that He died for everyone since His mercy is not time bound, but it doesn’t really explain the doctrine of sin.

Don’t consider it akin to reincarnation (though I see the logic)

I’m glad you understand my concept.

so much as the passing of a genetic deficiency or disease.

But that’s how they see it, literally as though we are decending from an infected ancestor.

 

[FMX500]

If this is what you think, then I have good news for you–it’s not true.

This the most intellectual response I have ever had. If only the intorelant responded that way, at least for the sake of having peace where there should be some.

We are not under a curse because of the personal sin of Adam and Eve or anyone else. Many people think that’s the case, but it’s because they have a faulty understanding of the results of Adam and Eve’s sin.

What happened is simply that by being disobedient, Adam and Eve LOST saving grace. God had intended they should live forever (hence he supplied them with the Tree of Life), but they chose to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, which was forbidden to them. When they did that they LOST the life God had intended and they LOST three intrinsic attributes we humans cannot regain except through God’s grace:

They lost (and we as their descendant lost–you can’t pass on what you don’t have) an unsullied will, unsullied ability to understand, and the unsullied desire to do what is right–all three have been “darkened” in us, like turning off the lights. All of us have failed in these areas to greater and lesser degrees because we are wounded and in need of healing. We are “stained” with original sin not guilty of actual sin at birth, so you can’t be punished for grabbing the “apple” since you didn’t do that, but you don’t have the ability to always know if the “apple” in front of you is good or not, the unsullied will to not take it if it isn’t or the unsullied desire to resist if you want it anyway–it’s why humanity is in the mess it’s in and will be until the end of time. Adam and Eve did know the difference, had the ability to fully understand, and could have desired to do the right thing, but took it anyway–so they were deliberately disobedient. No one can accidentally or by mere birth commit sin.

Baptism removes the stain of original sin, but we are still wounded and in need of the only remedy–God’s grace. This we receive primarily, but not exclusively, through the sacraments Christ established

In all honestly, I still do not get it at all. How did I become a sinner?
Look at this well known saying, well known by Catholics and protestants alike;

"We are sinners not because we sin but we sin because we are sinners."

Please tell me, where and how at any point I became a sinner.

 

[mdrummer5]

But that’s how they see it, literally as though we are decending from an infected ancestor.

That’s my point… that’s how it is meant to be perceived.

Please tell me, where and how at any point I became a sinner.

We all sin, period. Personally I think you’re dwelling on this a little too much. Nobody can say that they’ve lived their life free of sin so whether we sin because we’re sinners or we’re sinners because we sin is much like the chicken and the egg. You can think on it all you want to but it doesn’t change that we are sinners.

Excluding Jesus, there has not, is not and never will be a human being that is without sin we believe that this is because of Adam and Eve disobeying God. The logical argument of course is that babies don’t sin. That does not make them incapable and horrible as it sounds if they live long enough to perceive right and wrong they will inevitably sin, there is no exception to this. There aren’t even any priests who can honestly say they’ve NEVER sinned.

 

[Della]

This the most intellectual response I have ever had. If only the intorelant responded that way, at least for the sake of having peace where there should be some.

Okay. I think? I’m a little confused (not unusual for me. Ha!)

In all honestly, I still do not get it at all. How did I become a sinner?
Look at this well known saying, well known by Catholics and protestants alike;

"We are sinners not because we sin but we sin because we are sinners."

Please tell me, where and how at any point I became a sinner.

You became a sinner the first time you knowingly did something wrong. The question is why did you do that? That’s what I was attempting to explain–it’s because we all lack something Adam and Eve lost–grace. They lost grace and so could not pass down to us, their descendants, what they no longer had. It’s a loss of grace that impels us to sin. But, we don’t have to sin if we take advantage of the graces God gives us. This is hard for us because we are wounded–like being without a leg or being blind or having no sense of touch. When you lose those things you are going to be lame, unable to see, unable to feel. It’s a loss we are suffering.

It can be hard to grasp this if all your life you have thought of the loss of grace as something positive instead of a negative. Sin is doing wrong. We sin because we lost the ability to know better, to want to always do right, to be willing to always do right. But, the sacraments restore these virtues if we take advantage of them and want to be holy.

 

[Blood_Angel]

Correct me if I’m wrong but the way I understood original sin, eating the apple from the tree of knowledge expressed mans instinct to sin and therefore doomed to conform to temptations of the world for the rest of time.

I always believed that being a good person, is harder than conforming to sin.

 

[mdrummer5]

Correct me if I’m wrong but the way I understood original sin, eating the apple from the tree of knowledge expressed mans instinct to sin and therefore doomed to conform to temptations of the world for the rest of time.

I always believed that being a good person, is harder than conforming to sin.

In a nutshell, this is what I understand as well.

I think the problem the OP and most people have in this regard is that it is a fairly abstract thing. “How was I a sinner at birth when I had no ability do distinguish right or wrong?” it’s not that we sin as soon as we come out of the womb it’s that we will, unavoidably so.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Re: Original sin;

If what Adam and Eve did has anything thing to do with me then christianity must in some way believe in reincarnation.

In other words; I did not pick fruit from that tree.

Ok, having not read the rest of the posts, let me just wade in uninvited

What Adam and Eve did was to divest the human race of Sanctifying Grace. Sanctifying Grace is that grace that makes us Holy and (paraphrasing a lot here) make us desire to do God’s will.

A good analogy would be if a husband and wife had a fortune of one billion dollars (insert pinky into corner of mouth here) given to them at their wedding. That is enough to keep the family going for a LONG time correct? But then what if they went out and placed that entire sum of money down on one hand of blackjack and lost? The parents would have lost the fortune that was destined for their children. Is it the fault of the children that they are born broke? Absolutely not. But do they still have to live with that fact and find a way to earn more money (this is a bit of a breakdown in the analogy, but just go with it)? Absolutely yes.

So original sin is not ACTUAL sin, it is simply a lack of Grace which we are born with that was caused by our first ancestors desiring to be like God, having the knowledge of good and evil.

Does that help at all?

 

[FMX500]

That’s my point… that’s how it is meant to be perceived.

We all sin, period. Personally I think you’re dwelling on this a little too much. Nobody can say that they’ve lived their life free of sin so whether we sin because we’re sinners or we’re sinners because we sin is much like the chicken and the egg. You can think on it all you want to but it doesn’t change that we are sinners.

Excluding Jesus, there has not, is not and never will be a human being that is without sin we believe that this is because of Adam and Eve disobeying God. The logical argument of course is that babies don’t sin. That does not make them incapable and horrible as it sounds if they live long enough to perceive right and wrong they will inevitably sin, there is no exception to this. There aren’t even any priests who can honestly say they’ve NEVER sinned.

Not a single human has never sinned? I can think of two; Jesus and Mary.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

If this is what you think, then I have good news for you–it’s not true. We are not under a curse because of the personal sin of Adam and Eve or anyone else. Many people think that’s the case, but it’s because they have a faulty understanding of the results of Adam and Eve’s sin.

What happened is simply that by being disobedient, Adam and Eve LOST saving grace. God had intended they should live forever (hence he supplied them with the Tree of Life), but they chose to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, which was forbidden to them. When they did that they LOST the life God had intended and they LOST three intrinsic attributes we humans cannot regain except through God’s grace:

They lost (and we as their descendant lost–you can’t pass on what you don’t have) an unsullied will, unsullied ability to understand, and the unsullied desire to do what is right–all three have been “darkened” in us, like turning off the lights. All of us have failed in these areas to greater and lesser degrees because we are wounded and in need of healing. We are “stained” with original sin not guilty of actual sin at birth, so you can’t be punished for grabbing the “apple” since you didn’t do that, but you don’t have the ability to always know if the “apple” in front of you is good or not, the unsullied will to not take it if it isn’t or the unsullied desire to resist if you want it anyway–it’s why humanity is in the mess it’s in and will be until the end of time. Adam and Eve did know the difference, had the ability to fully understand, and could have desired to do the right thing, but took it anyway–so they were deliberately disobedient. No one can accidentally or by mere birth commit sin.

Baptism removes the stain of original sin, but we are still wounded and in need of the only remedy–God’s grace. This we receive primarily, but not exclusively, through the sacraments Christ established.

Ah man… Della did better than I did at explaining this…

 

[Barbkw]

In the beginning, God communicated directly with our first parents.

Our first parents, through their free will, chose their personal desires over God’s, and their close connection ended.

God’s direct communication with humanity returned over the centuries through certain leaders, priests, prophets and kings.

Our first parent’s sin (their original sin) affected us and it continues to effect the lives of people worldwide.

 

[Della]

Correct me if I’m wrong but the way I understood original sin, eating the apple from the tree of knowledge expressed mans instinct to sin and therefore doomed to conform to temptations of the world for the rest of time.

I always believed that being a good person, is harder than conforming to sin.

According to the Church man had no instinct to sin before the fall. Adam and Eve were perfect but unknowing of many things. The one thing they did know was God’s command not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge. In doing that they lost their innocence, their perfection. Even since man has had a darkened intellect, will, desire to do good.

Of course, each of us is more wounded in one way than in the others. Some desire very much to do good, but lack the will. Some know better but sin anyway. Some won’t do right even if it’s the best thing.

The more we are aligned with God’s will, however, the less we are prone to sin. And we are most easily and primarily aligned to God’s will by doing what he asked us to do–to be baptized, to receive the body and blood of Christ, to confess our sins, to pray, to give to the poor, to work for the good, to desire and strive to be holy, etc.

 

[Blood_Angel]

According to the Church man had no instinct to sin before the fall. Adam and Eve were perfect but unknowing of many things. The one thing they did know was God’s command not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge. In doing that they lost their innocence, their perfection. Even since man has had a darkened intellect, will, desire to do good.

Of course, each of us is more wounded in one way than in the others. Some desire very much to do good, but lack the will. Some know better but sin anyway. Some won’t do right even if it’s the best thing.

The more we are aligned with God’s will, however, the less we are prone to sin. And we are most easily and primarily aligned to God’s will by doing what he asked us to do–to be baptized, to receive the body and blood of Christ, to confess our sins, to pray, to give to the poor, to work for the good, to desire and strive to be holy, etc.

I agree with that. I want to be a good person but I’ve been drunk many times, I’ve viewed pornography, said nasty things, thought bad thoughts and there’s still a desire to be good.
So basically, the more we become one with the church, the more we become “good” and escape sin?

 

[FMX500]

Ok, having not read the rest of the posts, let me just wade in uninvited

What Adam and Eve did was to divest the human race of Sanctifying Grace. Sanctifying Grace is that grace that makes us Holy and (paraphrasing a lot here) make us desire to do God’s will.

A good analogy would be if a husband and wife had a fortune of one billion dollars (insert pinky into corner of mouth here) given to them at their wedding. That is enough to keep the family going for a LONG time correct? But then what if they went out and placed that entire sum of money down on one hand of blackjack and lost? The parents would have lost the fortune that was destined for their children. Is it the fault of the children that they are born broke? Absolutely not. But do they still have to live with that fact and find a way to earn more money (this is a bit of a breakdown in the analogy, but just go with it)? Absolutely yes.

So original sin is not ACTUAL sin, it is simply a lack of Grace which we are born with that was caused by our first ancestors desiring to be like God, having the knowledge of good and evil.

Does that help at all?

It doesn’t help, but let me explain why.

A depth company would pass the responsibility to me in order to recieve the money, but God… what is He passing to me? That is just wrong. I did nothing.

I cannot be a sinner just because I sinned for the first time, I simply go ahead and sin because I am a sinner, right?

So…

 

[Della]

I agree with that. I want to be a good person but I’ve been drunk many times, I’ve viewed pornography, said nasty things, thought bad thoughts and there’s still a desire to be good.
So basically, the more we become one with the church, the more we become “good” and escape sin?

By becoming one with the Church we become one with Christ since the Church is Christ’s body and his representative (for lack of a better word) to man. Jesus gave us the sacraments to restore saving grace to us. It’s why marriage is a sacrament–it’s meant to bring the life of Christ to couples and to their children. Holy Orders brings Christ to us through Christ’s ministers who have the charism to administer the sacraments. Every sacrament brings Christ to us in every aspect of our lives. So, the more we make the sacraments a part of our lives, the more we touch Christ, bring his saving grace into our very beings, changing us into his image. It’s very powerful!

 

[mdrummer5]

Not a single human has never sinned? I can think of two; Jesus and Mary.

I pointed out Jesus… but I stand corrected on Mary.

However, Jesus “doesn’t count” as he is both human and divine and Mary is the one exception as she was chosen by God hence “Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee”… so unless you had an angel of the Lord come and tell you something similar… then yes… you are a sinner as I am… as we all are.

 

[FMX500]

I pointed out Jesus… but I stand corrected on Mary.

However, Jesus “doesn’t count” as he is both human and divine and Mary is the one exception as she was chosen by God hence “Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee”… so unless you had an angel of the Lord come and tell you something similar… then yes… you are a sinner as I am… as we all are.

Okay fair enough, I’ll do us all a favor and submit this question to an apologist on this site. I will then put the link from the answer onto this thread.

Thank you, to all that helped.

 

[FMX500]

Okay fair enough, I’ll do us all a favor and submit this question to an apologist on this site. I will then put the link from the answer onto this thread.

Thank you, to all that helped.

Okay, that’s all done. As I said, the link will be put here if an answer comes about.

You most likely did explain it perfectly but it’s such the case that I can’t grasp the concept that I just have to have an answer that I can compute.

Thank you all, and I really do mean it.