Original Sin question.....

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Thanks Julia…👍
I hate not being able to read these things in full but I just can’t…Don’t know why…Most likely I’m just too worried about too many things right now…
In fact, I probably should not have even started this thread…🤷

Peace
James
Stress plays havoc with our ability to concentrate and with memory. Please be careful when driving, and keep a good healthy diet.
 
That is a factually incorrect statement.

There is clear mention of Limbo in the alphabetical index of CCC with a hyperlink reference to CCC 1261.
Where limbo is not mentioned:
1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
We already have a quote in the thread from JPII, I believe, that “limbo” was never part of the deposit of faith.
 
Thanks Julia…👍
I hate not being able to read these things in full but I just can’t…Don’t know why…Most likely I’m just too worried about too many things right now…
In fact, I probably should not have even started this thread…🤷

Peace
James
Typical symptoms of a contemplative.👍
 
Where limbo is not mentioned:

We already have a quote in the thread from JPII, I believe, that “limbo” was never part of the deposit of faith.
Where did the idea of “Limbo” come from other than a song by Chubby Checker “How Low Can You Go?” (Limbo Rock)
 
Stress plays havoc with our ability to concentrate and with memory. Please be careful when driving, and keep a good healthy diet.
Thanks Julia. I don’t drive much these days but you are right about my diet…It’s pretty poor most of the time…

Peace
James
 
James, we know that the infants slaughtered by Herod at the time of Jesus’s birth are in heaven, since the Church has instituted a feast for them and calls them Holy Innocents. They had no choice in their martyrdom, no choice to adopt the faith, no way to be cleansed of O-sin and enter heaven.

My thinking is that these holy martyrs are no different than the martyrs of the womb who suffer abortion. Our faith teaches that each of us are given a soul at the moment of conception, right? So where does that soul go in the after-life when it is resurrected, if through no fault of its own, it was prevented from water baptism? We know there are other forms of baptism.

St. Faustina opened a door of understanding to me when I read her excerpt about God offering an opportunity to the soul at the hour of death to accept God’s mercy, if it is willing. Bodily, these fetuses/infants have no mental cognition, yet their bodies will not remain in that state of imbecile for eternity – they will be glorified bodies.

Therefore, can God not permit a choice to them, as well, of accepting his mercy and salvation unbeknown to us in his Revelation? I think a lot about our bodily resurrection, and I believe that those who suffer dementia, bodily handicaps, aging infirmities, et al, will not resurrect in the same debilitating form or bodily age. Our little martyrs will have cognition and bodily agility in a glorified form.

We wrongly speculate that these infants, due to their bodily immaturity, are also immature in the soul. But God alone may justify them at their death in manners unknown to us due to a certain maturity of spirit. I differentiate spirit from “soul” because soul denotes our mental/emotional faculties to understand. Infants would not have that ability either, but let’s not disregard the ability of their spirit in God’s presence to make an eternal choice of him.

Hope this helps a little.
 
I think that you have touched on some of the points I have issues with and the pieces I’m trying to put together…
Forgive my dissecting your post, but this is the best way of explaining my thoughts as I read it.
But Jesus’ atonement isn’t efficacious for those who don’t repent;
Agreed…but repentance is something we do for personal sin. The child, not being guilty of original sin and not having reached the age of culpability, has nothing to repent.
adults aren’t cleansed and made new creations just because Jesus atoned for their sins; rather they become new creations as they’ve stepped forward in faith and have been baptized.
Agreed. For anyone who has reached the age of reason, of culpability, they are responsible and repentance is necessary
For infants, the community-generally the family- steps forward in* their* faith-standing in, so to speak, and the child is baptized and washed clean of Adam’s sin. Otherwise the sin, the injustice-lack of sanctifying grace/separation from God-remains.
This is where I begin to have a problem.
Let me put out a couple of quick points and see where it takes us.
Adam’s sin was twofold…The sin itself which was disobedience, and active and personal sin, and the effect of the sin which was the knowledge of good and evil - which of course carries with it culpability for one’s choices.
Jesus, the second Adam, corrected the sin of the first Adam by being obedient to the Father, even unto death.
So I fail to see how it is that children continue to be born alienated from God even after the restoration that we have through Christ.
I guess that I do not see how one can say that the “separation from God” remains.

Certainly we still have to deal with the effects of original sin and baptism is still efficacious on many levels, but should a child die before reaching the age of culpability, there is no sin on their soul that warrants damnation…and the imperfection that is the effect of original sin, can be quickly purged and the soul reach heaven.

If this is not true, then I seriously wonder about the true nature of Christ’s sacrifice and what it was meant to accomplish.

Peace
James
 
…This is where I begin to have a problem.
Let me put out a couple of quick points and see where it takes us.
Adam’s sin was twofold…The sin itself which was disobedience, and active and personal sin, and the effect of the sin which was the knowledge of good and evil - which of course carries with it culpability for one’s choices.
Jesus, the second Adam, corrected the sin of the first Adam by being obedient to the Father, even unto death.
The sin earned Hell. Jesus cancelled it by taking upon Himself the blame and punishment.
So I fail to see how it is that children continue to be born alienated from God even after the restoration that we have through Christ.
I guess that I do not see how one can say that the “separation from God” remains.

Certainly we still have to deal with the effects of original sin and baptism is still efficacious on many levels, but should a child die before reaching the age of culpability, there is no sin on their soul that warrants damnation…and the imperfection that is the effect of original sin, can be quickly purged and the soul reach heaven.
Peace
James
Towards restoration (reversal of sinful inclination) He instituted the Sacramental salvific process.
If this is not true, then I seriously wonder about the true nature of Christ’s sacrifice and what it was meant to accomplish.
His sacrifice cancelled eternal death. His sacramental salvific process gains Grace. All sufferings are redemptive in general. A categorisation based on specific purpose served is attempted here below:

While all sufferings serve a redemptive purpose in general, they can be categorised according to specific purpose served. Thus, our Lord’s sufferings can be described as propitiation or expiation as they constitute the penal compensation for the sins of all humans. The immediate consequence of sin is retributive suffering that serves as deterrent. The severe prolonged tribulation that frees us from the habit of sin is purgative suffering. Adversity caused by the Enemy to deter us from doing good, is turned by God into benevolent sanctifying suffering that grows and perfects virtue. That which is endured in the ultimate test – Baptism by Fire, is glorifying suffering.
 
Adam’s sin was twofold…The sin itself which was disobedience, and active and personal sin, and the effect of the sin which was the knowledge of good and evil -
But that wasn’t really the effect of sin. That was what was promised to tempt him, that he would be like the gods. It’s a lie, of course. So, the effect or result of sin was the ejection from the Garden. Prior to that, they lived in God’s realm, in His Garden. Now they lived in Time, now they had to die. Death is the consequence.
So I fail to see how it is that children continue to be born alienated from God even after the restoration that we have through Christ.
I don’t think they are. They are just born into a state that requires them to die to get back to God, as we all are. So in that sense, they are in separation from God. As we all are. We become more and more alienated from God as we grow and become more and more attached to the physical world. As infants or in utero, these little people cannot make any choices or even have much conscious awareness that there is a world to become attached to. I think Sirach has a good take on this.
Certainly we still have to deal with the effects of original sin and baptism is still efficacious on many levels, but should a child die before reaching the age of culpability, there is no sin on their soul that warrants damnation…and the imperfection that is the effect of original sin, can be quickly purged and the soul reach heaven.
I think we can also say there is no imperfection, that the requirement to die is obviously fulfilled by their passing, the separation is erased.

I believe this is also true for other kinds of people, like the profoundly retarded, who may live to adulthood, but who never obtain the capacity for choice. I wondered what purpose is served by their existence here. But then it’s in Scripture, isn’t it? “Why was this man born blind, because of his sin or his parents’ sin?” “Neither, it is to glorify God.”

Some people are simply an opportunity for grace for the rest of us. Maybe we all are that to one another at some level. But I do know that Christ’s mercy is unlimited and God wants all to be saved.
 
This raises the question…what is the point of baptizing infants anyway, then?
 
It would be a good idea at this point to review the CCC on the special graces of Baptism - what it does, what it bestows, and what we become. See 1265 thru 1271.

Marc, your question could also be asked, “then why become Catholic, if God is able to justify those outside the church?” We are not excused from following the direction of the Church in this regard. Receiving baptism and the sacraments are the most perfect way to salvation and should not be neglected with indifference. We know better and have received the truth.

The other ways of God’s justification are, as was stated a few times, entrusted to his mercy. We do not know with any certainty what happens to unbaptized infants, and like other theologians in previous ages, we simply leave it up to God.

Scripture reveals to us how important it was for the Israelite males of the O.T. to submit to circumcision by the 8th day. Does that mean God did not justify the females? Again, it is simply speculation that we may wonder about, and never have the answer until God chooses to reveal it to us. Did all the Holy Innocent martyrs killed by Herod have circumcision? We don’t know, but we do know they are celebrated by the Church in a special feast day.
 
The other ways of God’s justification are, as was stated a few times, entrusted to his mercy. We do not know with any certainty what happens to unbaptized infants, and like other theologians in previous ages, we simply leave it up to God.

Scripture reveals to us how important it was for the Israelite males of the O.T. to submit to circumcision by the 8th day. Does that mean God did not justify the females? Again, it is simply speculation that we may wonder about, and never have the answer until God chooses to reveal it to us. Did all the Holy Innocent martyrs killed by Herod have circumcision? We don’t know, but we do know they are celebrated by the Church in a special feast day.
I hope this is not getting too far from the topic, I think it’s closely related to what you have said.

Poster Inego de Loyola referenced this in another thread. I thought the source made it something that shows how constant is the position of the Church supporting the “God wants all to be saved” sentiment from Scripture:

CATECHISM OF SAINT PIUS X

ewtn.com/library/catechsm/piusxcat.htm

The Ninth Article of the Creed

27 Q. Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?

A. No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.

28 Q. How, then, were the Patriarchs of old, the Prophets, and the other just men of the Old Testament, saved?
A. The just of the Old Testament were saved in virtue of the faith they had in Christ to come, by means of which they spiritually belonged to the Church.

29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation

#29 is the hope of the world. And no one, especially of diminished capacity or infancy, needs be left behind.
 
11 Q. When should infants be brought to the Church to be baptised?
A. Infants should be brought to the Church to be baptised as soon as possible.

12 Q. Why such anxiety to have infants receive Baptism?
A. There should be the greatest anxiety to have infants baptised because, on account of their tender age, they are exposed to many dangers of death, and cannot be saved without Baptism.

13 Q. Do parents sin, then, who, through negligence, allow their children to die without Baptism, or who defer it?
A. Yes, fathers and mothers who, through negligence, allow their children to die without Baptism sin grievously, because they deprive their children of eternal life; and they also sin grievously by putting off Baptism for a long time, because they expose them to danger of dying without having received it.
‘Q. Where do infants go who die without baptism?
A. Infants who die without baptism go to Limbo, where they do not enjoy the sight of God but also do not suffer, this is because having original sin and this alone they do not merit Heaven but neither do they merit purgatory or Hell.’

Catechism of Christian Doctrine

'Before holy baptism, grace encourages the soul towards good from the outside, while Satan lurks in its depths, trying to block all the intellect’s ways of approach to the divine. But from the moment that we are reborn through baptism, the demon is outside, grace is within. Thus, whereas before baptism error ruled the soul, after baptism truth rules it. Nevertheless, even after baptism Satan still acts on the soul, often, indeed, to a greater degree than before. This is not because he is present in the soul together with grace; on the contrary, it is because he uses the body’s humors to befog the intellect with the delight of mindless pleasures. God allows him to do this, so that a man, after passing through a trial of storm and fire, may come in the end to the full enjoyment of divine blessings. For it is written: ‘We went through fire and water, and Thou hast brought us out into a place where the soul is refreshed’

St. Diadochos of Photiki

‘Whoever says that infants are alive in Christ even when they depart this life without being baptized is really both opposing the Apostolic preaching and condemning the whole Church which runs hastily with infants to the baptismal font because it is believed without any doubt that otherwise these infants cannot possibly be alive in Christ.’

St. Augustine

'I saw a throne in heaven on which sat the Lord Jesus Christ as Judge. At his feet sat the Virgin Mary. Surrounding the throne was a host of angels and a countless multitude of saints. A certain monk, a great scholar of theology, stood high up on a rung of a ladder that was fixed in the earth and whose top reached up to heaven. With an impatient and agitated bearing, as though full of wickedness and guile, he put questions to the Judge. . .

First question: Again he appeared on his ladder as before, saying: ”O Judge, I ask you: Why does one infant emerge alive from the mother’s womb and obtain baptism, while another, having received a soul, dies in the mother’s belly?”

Answer to the first question. The Judge answered: ”Friend, your inquiries are not made out of love but are made through my permission. So I answer you through the likeness of words.

You ask why one infant dies in the mother’s belly while another emerges alive. There is a reason. All the strength of the child’s body comes, of course, from the seed of its father and mother; however, if it is conceived without due strength, because of some weakness of its father or mother, it dies quickly. As a result of the negligence or carelessness of the parents as well as of my divine justice, many times it happens that what was joined together comes apart quickly.

Yet a soul is not brought to the harshest punishment for this reason, however little time it had for giving life to the body, but, rather, it comes to the mercy that is known to me. Just as the sun shining into a house is not seen as it is in its beauty - only those who look into the sky see its rays - so too the souls of such children, though they do not see my face for lack of baptism, are nevertheless closer to my mercy than to punishment, but not in the same way as my elect.”
  • Revelations of St. Bridget of Sweden
 
Shin,

I wondered how long it would take before we saw a fly in the ointment. 😦

May I remind you that Augustine is not a Pope invested with the Authority of Peter, though he is a saint. The same with the other two saints you quoted. Why do you set these teachings ABOVE the teachings from the Church that are presented to us in the CCC? Do you want to ignite dissension yet again over this oft-repeated contentious topic?

Rome has spoken. That is enough. We do not revert back to former theologies, as if Rome is now out of touch and possibly wrong, as your post implies. Limbo is not de fide, and if you need the proofs, search in AAA and the hundreds of posts on CAF using “limbo.”
 
It would be a good idea at this point to review the CCC on the special graces of Baptism - what it does, what it bestows, and what we become. See 1265 thru 1271.
Right. But if infants are saved without baptism, the graces have little practical effect until one reaches the age of reason.
Marc, your question could also be asked, “then why become Catholic, if God is able to justify those outside the church?”
Ah, but there’s a difference. The difference in this case is that as adults we have reached the age of reason and are culpable for our choices, and we know that it’s easier to receive God’s graces as a Catholic.
The other ways of God’s justification are, as was stated a few times, entrusted to his mercy. We do not know with any certainty what happens to unbaptized infants, and like other theologians in previous ages, we simply leave it up to God.
Correct 👍 What I’m saying though is, why would God simply not reveal to us that infant baptism isn’t necessary, if it’s not? It just seems like an unlikely conclusion.

I’m not trying to be argumentative, of course, I’d love it to be true just like everybody else here. But that’s always seemed like a problem to me.
 
Marc, it is at times like these that I turn to Psalm 131:
1 My heart is not proud, Lord,
my eyes are not haughty;
I do not concern myself with great matters
nor with things too sublime for me.

2 Rather, I have calmed and quieted my soul,
like a weaned child on its mother’s lap,
so is my soul within me.
3 Israel, put your hope in the Lord
both now and forevermore.
God has not revealed this to us through the Church, but of those revealed truths, we do our best to follow them wholeheartedly in obedience, knowing he had a purpose for what he asks of us. This speculative theology is not for us to draw a conclusion, but we can hope in his mercy, without being offensive to God.
 
Right. But if infants are saved without baptism, the graces have little practical effect until one reaches the age of reason…
But we don’t know that. I don’t know what you mean by “practical effect” but I do know that God values our obedience, our intent to conform ourselves to His Will, and most of all He values us. What is served and how, exactly, in these various cases?

I don’t know, I wasn’t there when He laid the foundations of the world. And I also don’t think I either should, or can, understand everything.

(Or even most things.)
 
Marc, it is at times like these that I turn to Psalm 131:
1 My heart is not proud, Lord,
my eyes are not haughty;
I do not concern myself with great matters
nor with things too sublime for me.

2 Rather, I have calmed and quieted my soul,
like a weaned child on its mother’s lap,
so is my soul within me.
3 Israel, put your hope in the Lord
both now and forevermore.
God has not revealed this to us through the Church, but of those revealed truths, we do our best to follow them wholeheartedly in obedience, knowing he had a purpose for what he asks of us. This speculative theology is not for us to draw a conclusion, but we can hope in his mercy, without being offensive to God.
I think that is the best advice in times like this.

We don’t know what happens. We know we must baptize infants. God knows why. Trust Him. 👍
 
I think that is the best advice in times like this.

We don’t know what happens. We know we must baptize infants. God knows why. Trust Him. 👍
How is it that many evangelical groups don’t baptize children until they are older? The main exception I know of is the Evangelical Covenant that believes in infant baptism.
 
Just want to say thanks to everyone for chiming in…I’m reading all of the responses…even though I am not adding anything to the conversation. It’s been a tough few days. :yawn:…

Peace
James
 
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