Original Sin vs. Evolution

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abcdefg:
If you have trouble why there’s one aspect of the origin of human that doesn’t need God, you’ll eventually end of worshipping that non-God “god” also.
Good thing I don’t have trouble with that concept.
If you think God took active part in every part of the origin of human.
Actually, I believe God created man as well as everything else.
then tell me why God can’t create human body and soul directly.
He can.
what God is trying to prove when He first made a monkey/ape then turned it into human body?
Unlike you, I don’t even pretend to know the answer to that. You might want to ask Him directly.
and if one admits God’s active involvement in the creation of human body, he also admit it can’t be understand using physics laws.
You mean those laws that God created?
If one use physics law to interpret the resurrection of Jesus, he will inevitably come to the conclusion: the resurrected Jesus isn’t the one on the cross
You are finally right about something.

Peace

Tim
 
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Orogeny:
Unlike you, I don’t even pretend to know the answer to that.
It’s not pretend. you only need to think God in the best possible way.
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Orogeny:
You might want to ask Him directly.You mean those laws that God created?You are finally right about something.

Peace

Tim
all physics laws are set by God, however Himself isn’t restricted by it. He can choose to override the law whenever he sees fit.
 
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abcdefg:
all physics laws are set by God, however Himself isn’t restricted by it. He can choose to override the law whenever he sees fit.
Or, conversely, He can choose to follow them, right?

Peace

Tim
 
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Orogeny:
Or, conversely, He can choose to follow them, right?

Peace

Tim
Of course, but that’s not in the best interest of the relation between God and human on the creation of man.
There’s only one law God never makes an exception, love. that include the relation with human. He did everything to improve the relation between human and Himself. Contrary to some atheists’ claim, God is omnipotent and have no desire to create anything, God can’t stand having no one to love.
 
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abcdefg:
Of course, but that’s not in the best interest of the relation between God and human on the creation of man.
According to you? It’s not in the best interest of the relationship between God and humans for God to be consistent with the laws He developed? It’s in the best interest of the relationship between God and humans for God to develop laws and then trick humans into thinking that He used them for creation?

Peace

Tim
 
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Orogeny:
According to you? It’s not in the best interest of the relationship between God and humans for God to be consistent with the laws He developed?
Tim
Of course it’s not for the best interest. Jesus performed so many miracles none of which can be explained by physics law to show he is God and God loves us. If God always obeys physics laws, how can we know there’s a God?
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Orogeny:
It’s in the best interest of the relationship between God and humans for God to develop laws and then trick humans into thinking that He used them for creation?

Peace
He breaks the physics law at the creation to show how serious He’s about everything he has created.
If there’s anything that come out without God (for example by evolution) then God has no authority to give it to human.
 
Let me get this straight: I either have to reject the concept of evolution, notwithstanding all the evidence, or else I have to reject original sin, and (following the logic) also reject Christ’s sacrifice, which is to say reject Christianity itself?

So…What do I make of the evidence? It was put there by God to confuse me?

I don’t know.

The more I think about it, abcdefg, the more I think you must be wrong, or you’re trying to lure me away from God. Are you an agent of the devil?
 
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Declaration:
So…What do I make of the evidence? It was put there by God to confuse me?
God doesn’t confuse humans, humans confuse humans
 
Chesterton wrote something like this: the sun comes up in the east every morning and the man who views things from a purely scientific perspective says - the sun must rise in the east every day because it is a natural law. But actually the sun rises in the east everyday because God wills it to rise in the east. It could just as easily rise in the west tomorrow if God so willed it. The fact that the sun rises in the east every day is not a natural law…it is a miracle. A miracle that God chooses to repeat on a daily basis.

When looking at things this way it is not hard to concieve of God using evolution to create some creatures but not all. Or using evolution to create all creatures except for man.

This is not looking at things from a purely scientific perspective, but there is no need to look at things from a purely scientific perspective outside the laboratory.

Some will say - but you cannot discount science. But I haven’t. I acknowledge that evolution occured to some degree or another. However, I choose not to believe the following:
  1. That life began by chance
  2. That evolution, to the extent it occured, was a random process
  3. That man evolved. I believe that man was created - I am open to the possibility that all other creatures are the product of evolution though at this point I am not convinced of that.
From my understanding, based on the current evidence, none of the above is the equivilent of believing the earth is flat.

Based on this I don’t struggle with evolution and original sin.
 
I really doubt that much of anybody here, except abcdefg, “struggles” with evolution and Original Sin.
 
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abcdefg:
Of course it’s not for the best interest.
Why not?
Jesus performed so many miracles none of which can be explained by physics law to show he is God and God loves us. If God always obeys physics laws, how can we know there’s a God?
So you are saying that God tricked us. He developed these natural laws and allowed us to use our intellect to understand these laws. Then, He created all these lines of evidence so that, when we applied the laws that He developed and He allowed us to understand, we would come to the erroneous conclusion that life evolved.

I’m sorry, but I have a hard time seeing God a the Great Trickster.
He breaks the physics law at the creation to show how serious He’s about everything he has created.
Why? Why would that show anything other than that He wasted His time creating the laws of physics?
If there’s anything that come out without God (for example by evolution) then God has no authority to give it to human.
You sure are quick to limit God.

Peace

Tim
 
Sugar Ray, God loves human so he made something predictable to human like sun rise in the east to make human life easier. however when He needs to prove himself, He can break the loop and that’s miracle. If you read Bible sun and moon indeed hang in the sky immobile in Jos10:13
 
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Orogeny:
Why not?So you are saying that God tricked us. He developed these natural laws and allowed us to use our intellect to understand these laws. Then, He created all these lines of evidence so that, when we applied the laws that He developed and He allowed us to understand, we would come to the erroneous conclusion that life evolved.
God never tricked us, He told us in the Bible and Tradition how he created man. it’s no natural process(Roman Catechism) and you can’t trace the origin using physics. if you insisted on denying he’s active part in the origin of man and use physics to find the root. you come to the wrong conclusion.
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Orogeny:
I’m sorry, but I have a hard time seeing God a the Great Trickster.
Why? Why would that show anything other than that He wasted His time creating the laws of physics?
as shown in the above post: to make life easier.human need God everywhere, however like washing face in time of peace doesn’t need special interference of God, you can use physics law instead of praying for a miracle.
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Orogeny:
You sure are quick to limit God.
Can you give others something that’s not all yours?
 
abc << That’s a paradox, that’s why I oppose evolution so vehemently >>

abc, do you have any scientific objections against evolution? If so, what are they? Make your scientific case.

Just answer that question, and be very specific.

Or are all your objections theological?

You are difficult to discuss things with because it seems English is not your native language. At least that’s the conclusion I come to. And too bad this thread was closed down since it was fun while it lasted. :rolleyes:

Phil P
 
Uh oh we have another creationist in our midst to deal with…

"Darwinism, which has been the chief explanation of how evolution works (through slow, almost imperceptible changes), is in trouble. In recent years learned books have argued that the perfecting of science has shown Darwinism to be untenable. The missing links are still missing. There is no reasonable way that a protracted series of minute changes can turn, say, a sun-sensitive blot on the skin into an eye. Living things are far more complex, especially at the microscopic level, than Darwin could have imagined.

"Even unwavering evolutionists such as Gould have admitted that Darwinism is on shaky legs. Many of them have rejected Darwin’s notion of small mutations adding up, over millions of years, into a positive alteration that allows the fit to be even more survivable. These evolutionists have proposed an alternative, ‘punctuated equilibrium.’ Instead of a long series of minute changes, there is one spectacular mutation: The blot becomes a fully developed eye in a single or perhaps in a handful of generations, not in thousands of generations. This idea has problems of its own and has not received universal acceptance among evolutionists.

“Taking all this together – new books that argue that Darwin got it wrong, plus pro-Darwinists’ implicit acknowledgement that Darwinism has problems – we can envision this scenario: Darwinism, the chief explanation of how evolution does what it is supposed to do, is seen to be unsalvageable. It must be abandoned, to be replaced by – what? So far there is no alternative, which means that evolutionists might find themselves in an anomalous position: arguing that evolution is true, but unable to explain how it might occur. And if that point is reached, the whole theory might be junked as untenable. I’m not saying that this is likely, but, given the unsettled state of evolution as a theory, it is possible.”

I’ll let you figure out who wrote this by clicking here 😃

Thought I’d throw that in…For a response see

Index to Creationist Claims, mainly scientific responses, some of the theology is questionable as I read the responses.

Phil P
 
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tomaskovarik:
Are you suggesting that there are problems with Evolution?
I think we all accepted evolution pretty much “as fact” (whatever that means).
I don’t simply suggest it, I say so flat out.
  • Natural Selection* is fact. Particular Inheritance is fact. Dominant and recessive genes are fact. These are all good scientific theories which have yet to be contadicted by experiment or observation. Unfortunately, they are only components of what we call Evolution.
Evolution, as it is presented in the schools and the media, has socio-political components that are not derived from science and are not subject to observation or experiment…
 
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PhilVaz:
abc << That’s a paradox, that’s why I oppose evolution so vehemently >>

abc, do you have any scientific objections against evolution? If so, what are they? Make your scientific case.

Just answer that question, and be very specific.

Or are all your objections theological?
I can object evolution scientifically but you need to start a new thread, this thread is about theology. or if you dare not, I’ll start one for you.
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PhilVaz:
You are difficult to discuss things with because it seems English is not your native language. At least that’s the conclusion I come to.
And you don’t understand theology one bit. no such accusation please.
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PhilVaz:
And too bad this thread was closed down since it was fun while it lasted. :rolleyes:

Phil P
Moderator activities isn’t allowed to be discussed. mate.and I still can quote that thread whenever I want. whenever I quote that thread, you become silent. you can’t refute it’s Church’s Tradition to oppose evolution and polygenism
 
abc << I can object evolution scientifically but you need to start a new thread, this thread is about theology. or if you dare not, I’ll start one for you. >>

No, no, no. Do it here in this thread. We don’t need yet another evolution thread. List one scientific objection you have to evolution that you think is a good scientific objection. Maybe something that hasn’t been addressed at TalkOrigins or PandasThumb a thousand times.

Phil P
 
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PhilVaz:
abc << I can object evolution scientifically but you need to start a new thread, this thread is about theology. or if you dare not, I’ll start one for you. >>

No, no, no. Do it here in this thread. We don’t need yet another evolution thread. List one scientific objection you have to evolution that you think is a good scientific objection. Maybe something that hasn’t been addressed at TalkOrigins or PandasThumb a thousand times.

Phil P
I’ll start another thread in 4 hours. Hijacking threads is against forum rules.
 
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