Original Sin vs. Evolution

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PhilVaz:
this << That is rubbish! I have lived in Asia for the past 20 years and what you say is nonsense! >>

You telling me Jump by Van Halen is not terrible noise?

What about this monstrosity and this horrendous melody?

Phil P
I’m British and I don’t like Van Halen.
All over Asia, including on tv, the young like Western music and they have their own bands singing Western style songs in local language.
When Western groups tour Asian countries the concerts are always sellouts.
 
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richbansha:
Invention of species for non-scientific reasons.
The example you used was Homo ergaster. Your assertion was that the change was made even though the anatomical justification was weak. You then posited that the change was made to a) further academic standing, or b) because the person suggesting the change was racist or trying to keep the species from being used by racists. Yet you have nothing other than your own opinion as to why that was done. Therefore, until you give a legitimate example of the “invention” of species for non-scientific reasons, I will consider you unable to do so.
Sure in a 2 million year time frame.
What 2 million year time frame? The naming of hominid species is not 2 million years old. The 1950’s isn’t considered even remotely recent in the field of paleoanthropology.
The main point is that there are still experts who do not support the division of the Homo Erectus species. That makes it contemporary.
That may be true, but I haven’t read or heard that the reasons they don’t support the division is racial as you suggest.
I don’t retract.
Too bad.
My point was that Evolution has unscientific components and therefore does not constitute a valid theory. Racism? Avarice? Ambition? No matter. None are science.
You have not even begun to make the link between biological evolution and racism.
It was my aim to merely cast doubt upon Evolution, not to bury it now and for all time.
Then try doing it honestly, with science.
That would take a PHD level dissertation of many volumes.
Except that no PhD has been able to bury it at all much less for all time.

Peace

Tim
 
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tomaskovarik:
…For example, what Westerners considers a beatiful harmony in music is totally rejected as a noise by asians. …
Yeah you should just hear the things that Yo Yo Ma says about Mozart :rolleyes:

Back OT

While I’m aware that there may be some dilemma in reconciling Original Sin with Evolution, I’m also aware that there can be no contradiction between faith and reason. Since the evidence for evolution is so compelling the answer **must **be that I just don’t understand how they fit together yet.

Case closed, No problem. 👍
 
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steveandersen:
Yeah you should just hear the things that Yo Yo Ma says about Mozart :rolleyes:

Back OT

While I’m aware that there may be some dilemma in reconciling Original Sin with Evolution, I’m also aware that there can be no contradiction between faith and reason. Since the evidence for evolution is so compelling the answer **must **be that I just don’t understand how they fit together yet.

Case closed, No problem. 👍
Of course, you find some great classical musicians among them. Yo Yo Ma is a good example and there are many others. But these people have the training, they developed “their ear” so to speak. Ask people in villages about Mozart, play it to them and they will run away.
The same way, play their music to us…the music they consider beautiful …and most of us will run away.
 
tomaskovaric:

I disagree with your position on morality being relative. Certain laws and customs and traditions vary, of course. But show me the society that has built a statue of their greatest liar. Where is the best selling book on how to most effectively abuse your children? Name for me the world’s most highly honored coward?

There are certain values that transcend all socities and times.

But that aside, let’s consider something else. How about self sacrifice. Why does someone like Mother Theresa feel the desire to give her whole life to help people that she did not know and did not need to know? This desire, and the honoring of it, are unique to mankind. Where did it come from? How did it evolve?

Or how about our conscience? How do we explain that inner sense of burning shame when we do something wrong. Or the gratification that comes from helping others? How is it that we have a conscience and where did it come from? And why does it seem that the people with the most highly developed consciences (ie Mother Theresa) are so often profoundly religous?

We need to look beyond evolution and science for these answers.
 
By the way…I just read a chilling quote from Richard Dawkins:

"Isn’t the murderer or rapist just a machine with a defective part?"

This is the result of seeing science as the whole truth instead of a slice of the truth. To seek the whole truth we need to go beyond evolution and outside the laboratory.
 
Sugar Ray:
By the way…I just read a chilling quote from Richard Dawkins:

"Isn’t the murderer or rapist just a machine with a defective part?"

This is the result of seeing science as the whole truth instead of a slice of the truth. To seek the whole truth we need to go beyond evolution and outside the laboratory.
How would that quote compare to saying that the murderer or rapist has a fallen nature?

In an odd way of bringing the thread back full circle doesn’t original sin in effect give us a defective part?

(BTW I of course agree with you that there is life outside the laboratory and I don’t think any serious scientists would say anything different)
 
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tomaskovarik:
Of course, you find some great classical musicians among them. Yo Yo Ma is a good example and there are many others. But these people have the training, they developed “their ear” so to speak. Ask people in villages about Mozart, play it to them and they will run away.
The same way, play their music to us…the music they consider beautiful …and most of us will run away.
Well, yeah.

It’s the difference between being educated – exposed to culture more broadly than what comes over the transom, whether that transom is the TV or the village gathering – and not being educated. Culture is learned, and music is part of culture.

Heck, most “modern” Americans don’t even find classical western music appealing – much less non-western music. But that’s because they’re culturally bereft, mostly by their own choice. These are the same people who reject serious exposure and consideration of ideas (for instance, biological science!) as well as art, music, etc., etc., etc.

I don’t find it particularly hard to understand why so many Americans are so functionally illiterate, about science, about art, about music, about…well, you name it. What I find hard to understand is the way that so many Americans absolutely glory in their ignorance…the extent to which they consider ignorance some kind of badge of honor (even as they ridicule and demean those among them who value learning – especially those who value learning for its own sake, rather than as a means to “getting ahead.”)

I’m pretty cynical about American culture, I’m afraid – and that encompasses both its rejection of moral values, and its rejection of intellectual pursuits. Sadly, many Americans who are concerned about our society’s rejection of morality are oblivious to (or even supportive of) its rejection of intellectualism. At the same time, many who worry about our anti-intellectualism are indifferent to our abandonment of moral values.

Both are important. Deliberately choosing immorality is wrong. So is deliberately choosing stupidity.

But you can be moral, and thoughtful. And you can reconcile Original Sin, and God’s creation of man, with evolution. You have to be able to separate mechanisms from causes. That’s not that hard, if you think about it.
 
stevenanderson:

I hope you’re well.

Dawkins’ comment actually does away with fallen nature because there is no sin. Murder is not wrong it is simply the result of a defective part.

If my wife catches in me in adultry and confronts me I can merely shrug my shoulders and say I have a defective part.

There is no need for confession or repentence or sorrow or shame. All the elements of our conscience are gone. We are not made in the image of our creator with an absolute truth to adhere to. We are machines.

When I say we need to go beyond science I don’t mean that people need to have a life outside the laboratory. I mean that in the search for truth we need to acknowledge that science is only a slice of the pie. We also need consider history, philosophy, and religion. This was in response to a question from tomaskovaric about evolution doing away with the need for creation.

Dawkins, in my opinion, is looking to science as the only truth. He is so stuck on evolution that he has reduced man to machine. He has sucked the life out of humanity and removed good and evil from the equation.
 
Sugar Ray:
tomaskovaric:

I disagree with your position on morality being relative. Certain laws and customs and traditions vary, of course. But show me the society that has built a statue of their greatest liar. Where is the best selling book on how to most effectively abuse
Well, you are living in one such country aren’t you?
 
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tomaskovarik:
I am asian
What has that got to do with it? You are in a minority if you really think Asians don’t like Western music.

I’m married to a filipina. I now live in the Philippines.
I lived in Singapore and Hong Hong. I travelled extensively to almost all Asian countries in my job before retiring. I have longstanding friends from India, China, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Korea, Japan, Thailand and they all like Western music.
I would interested to know why you think Asians don’t like it.
By the way which Asian country are you from? Your forum name would suggest Eastern Europe or Russia which I would not classify as Asia.
 
😃 **Music! I hear music in the background! ** Give me a passionate acoustic guitar, strings and choral exotic Pacific Pan flutes, miniature maracas and beaded gourds from Santa Fe and what do you have? Stevan Pasero, chamber Nouveau “Seasons”! 😉
granadastudios.com/

I believe in Miracles “You Sexy Things”! (click ‘samples’ on above link) …

Oh Lordy, it’s about Original Sin! :eek: ❤️ A must read:

LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
ON THE COLLABORATION OF MEN AND WOMEN
IN THE CHURCH AND IN THE WORLD
by
Joseph Card. Ratzinger 🙂 👍
Prefect
  • Angelo Amato, SDB
    Titular Archbishop of Sila
    Secretary
vatican.mondosearch.com/cgi-bin/MsmGo.exe?grab_id=0&page_id=44126&query=Original%20Sin&SCOPE=EnglishUI&hiword=Original%20Sin%20

On the road again… 😦
 
“Well, you are living in one such country aren’t you?” -tomaskovarik

You’re going to have to expand on this.

I’m not sure what you mean.
 
Sugar Ray:
stevenanderson:

I hope you’re well.
I’m fighting off a cold that would kill an ordinary man…but I’ll live thank you, Ray. And yourself?
Sugar Ray:
Dawkins’ comment actually does away with fallen nature because there is no sin. Murder is not wrong it is simply the result of a defective part.
Ok, that’s not how I read it.
I thought he was implying that yes it is wrong but there is a lessening of culpability.
“poor dear, his mother beat him, it’s not his fault.etc”
Sugar Ray:
If my wife catches in me in adultry and confronts me I can merely shrug my shoulders and say I have a defective part.
Mustn’t say it…. mustn’tsay it….I’ll say it

[Groucho voice]Apparently not that defective! [/Groucho voice] rimshot
Thank you, thank you I’ll be a Grossingers all next week. Remember your wait staff! Try the veal!

Sorry, you toss up a meatball like that I just have to swing at it. :o

Sugar Ray said:
….When I say we need to go beyond science I don’t mean that people need to have a life outside the laboratory. I mean that in the search for truth we need to acknowledge that science is only a slice of the pie.

That is what I meant when I referred to life outside the laboratory

Sugar Ray said:
……Dawkins, in my opinion, is looking to science as the only truth. He is so stuck on evolution that he has reduced man to machine. He has sucked the life out of humanity and removed good and evil from the equation.

I am not familiar with his work.

The one quote about a defective part simply raised the question in my mind; is a fallen nature a defective part

Not a perfect simile but for some reason it resonated with me.

I suppose that as an engineer I tend to think in mechanical terms
 
stevenandersen:

I always appreciate a Groucho reference.

Best
 
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PhilVaz:
How about PhD scientists who are also ThD theologians? Fr. George Coyne, Fr. Stanley Jaki, Fr. George Lemaitre, Denis Lamoureux? Many more…Phil P
Hello Phil, 🙂

:whacky: 😃 I’m concerned about this wikipedia link above that takes us to ‘Theistic Evolution’. The website has the Roman Catholic Church connected to Theistic Evolution. I don’t think that is true. Look at the following url and my recent postings under the topic If evolution were true.

Here is the url to . . .
PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR CULTURE,
PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR INTERRELIGIOUS DIALOGUE

JESUS CHRIST
THE BEARER OF THE WATER OF LIFE

A Christian reflection
on the “New Age”

vatican.mondosearch.com/cgi-bin/MsmGo.exe?grab_id=0&page_id=4961&query=Theism&SCOPE=EnglishUI&hiword=Theism%20

What are we going to do? :confused:

Did you read the url I last posted on this thread from the Vatican about Original Sin? The Pope definately expaned upon and gave insights into what was meant by ‘Original Sin’. Did you notice them within the text of his message?
 
Daniel Marsh:
was there physical death for people before the fall?
I think there was a physical death for animals, not people. Evolution theory cannot operate on the assumption that there is no death. If there were some “hominids” outside the “garden”, then they also could have been subjected to death.
I also have a little problem with death…even of animals.
 
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PhilVaz:
wild << I’m not a dude. I’m a dudette. >>

Sorry not a dude. I can’t tell. I am definitely a dude. :whacky:

Phil P
It’s cool Saint Phil 😉 No problemo. I’m only curious ‘why’ you thought I was a dude. Fess up the truth at least. :twocents: worth. :ehh: ** Please**please. How can you be sure Zian is a dude? I don’t think she is ahehe.

Before I forget, it doesn’t mean if someone states or writes he/she are a Catholic that he/she is a Roman Catholic. I’m a Roman Catholic. My Catholic Encyclopedia has two definitions for the word ‘Catholic’:
  1. Universal
  2. A person who tries he/her best to be a Roman Catholic.
Interesting :ehh:

:blessyou:
 
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thistle:
What has that got to do with it? You are in a minority if you really think Asians don’t like Western music.
Well today, things are mixed up really. So, asians really like our music now. But thats because we are successully exporting it. But conversely, do you like asian music? Can you name one? (Other than the rock imitations they make).
Asian music is based on so called “pentatonic scale”, which is not like our diatonic (heptatonic) scale, and our sense of harmony, which slowly developed from the Gregorian Chant. A typical asian (before the music export), could not understand the four-part harmony which is characteristic of our music (both classical and also popular).
In fact, people in times of the Gregorian Chant would have problems with our harmony as well.
Plus, Beethoven would certainly have problems with the music of Debussy, or Beatles.
All this I am saying to point out the relativity of “beauty”.
You have the same in painting. Many people do not like impressionism and prefer simple realism.
Remember guys, what is the title of this thread right? We have diverged away.
Lets get back to the discussion of Original Sin and evolution. I think it is hard to reconcile the two, but maybe it is not as hard?
 
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