Original Sin - Why?

[jgmes2001]

Ok, according to Catholic doctrine, Adam and Eve were created without sin or inclination to sin. Yet through their own free will they were deceived by Satan into eating the fruit of knowledge. A plethora of questions arise from this simple statement: (1. How did they sin if they had to inclination to sin? 2. Why were they punished if they had no knowledge of what good or evil were? 3. How does a fruit give knowledge to a person? Did snakes use to have legs? How could the entire human race be descended from two people?) but these are not the issue at hand.

After that time, every person ever born, starting with Cain and Abel, have been born tainted with original sin, an inclination to evil caused by the knowledge received by our first parents’ sin, which requires to be reborn in Christ through baptism. Ok, not entirely sure why we should carry the stain of something we had no part in, and why baptism removes this, but let’s carry on.

According to Catholics, Mary was conceived immaculately without original sin, despite it not being mentioned in the Holy Scriptures. Now, this does not mean she was incapable of sinning, but the natural inclination towards evil was not within her. She did not need baptism, in short. And since she was able to never sin, she did not even need salvation from Christ.

Now, my question is, if God Almighty was able to create Mary in such a way so that His Redeemer Son could be born, why does God not just allow all of us to be born without original sin? Sure, a lot of us may still turn to sin, but we would not be driven towards evil as we currently are. The world would probably be a better place.

Note please that I am a Catholic, I just don’t understand this all.

 

[jkarp]

1. How did they sin if they had to inclination to sin? 2. Why were they punished if they had no knowledge of what good or evil were? 3. How does a fruit give knowledge to a person? Did snakes use to have legs?

The third chapter of Genesis makes a lot more sense when looked at as a figurative way. It becomes especially meaningful when looked at as an ancient discussion of the “birds and bees” or the marital relationship; a father having a frank discussion with a son, perhaps.

When God created man and woman, he gave us a special privilege, we actually get to take part in the creation process; through the marital act, a man and woman are allowed to assist God in the creation of another human being. The angels don’t even have this privilege. Without the cooperation of each of the three parties (man, woman, or God), the new life will not be created. This privilege is described in Genesis 2:24-25 - “That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body. The man and his wife were both naked, yet they felt no shame.”

There are several other important points to note. Adam was given a single task by God in Genesis 2:15, “The Lord God then took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden, to cultivate and care for it.” The Hebrew word used for “cultivate and care” is shamar. Shamar also means “to guard.” Adam’s job was to guard the garden. Adam is not doing his job, when the serpent makes its appearance, Adam is right there with Eve, allowing it all to happen. Another important note is that the serpent is commonly interpreted as a snake; this is not necessarily the case. The Hebrew word used here is nahash. Nahash appears several other places in the Bible to describe far more sinister beings. E.g., Revelation 12:3-4, a “huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems. Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky . . .” This is not our garden variety snake.

When the nahash temps Adam and Eve, they quickly give in and allow themselves to misuse one of the very special gifts God had given them, their role in the creation process (i.e. the ‘fruit’ from the tree). Adam and Eve begin to use the gift selfishly, distorting God’s original intention. Genesis 3:7, “Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized that they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together . . .” Shame and guilt enters the world.

Is the important question, why did Adam and Eve allow themselves to be tempted? No, the most important question is, what was the nahash doing in the garden in the first place?

The punishment meted out by God is fitting to the offense. Because she had misused the gift of sex and caused Adam to sin with her, God punishes Eve, Genesis 3:16, “I will intensify the pangs of your childbearing; in pain shall you bring forth children. Yet your urge will be for your husband, and he shall be your master.” Because Adam failed to *shamar, *he is punished, Genesis 3:17, “Cursed be the ground because of you! In toil shall you eat its yield all the days of your life. Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to you, as you eat of the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face shall you get bread to eat . . .”

The punishment is carried down through the generations because of what God says in Genesis 3:22, “See! The man has become like one of us, knowing what is good and what is bad! Therefore, he must not be allowed to put out his hand to take fruit from the tree of life also, and thus eat of it and live forever.”

 

[fhansen]

Adam and Eve sinned because they chose to believe a lie which promised them a “good”: that of being like God. The reason why it was possible for them to sin was because 1) they were given the freedom (freewill) to do so and 2) being creation rather than God, they lacked His perfection and so lacked His perfect will and knowledge. This was the original act of unbelief since disobeying God is to put ones’ own opinion on a higher level than His, which is the equivalent of believing that God is not God. As a result, according to Catholic teaching, Adam lost sanctifying grace which is the gift from God which keeps man in a state where his reason and spirit are in complete control of all of his desires and passions. Another way of thinking about it is that Adam turned away from or lost God and so became lost himself, passing this lost condition onto the whole human race because God determined that this was just and necessary for His future plans for us. There is much good speculation as to why God did it this way but in any case the result is the world we live in with all of its’ radical freedom and the obvious unreasonableness and lack of control with which that freedom is often used- or abused. The “stain” of original sin is really just this lack or privation of what man was given to begin with. Man was not designed to determine what good was and what evil was. He was designed to obey God, the Creator, the only One qualified to determine the correct behavior of His creation.

Original sin had nothing to do with sex. A few Catholic thinkers have speculated thus but this idea was rejected by the Church. It was simply the disobedience of the perfect will of a God whose perfection was too “big” or infinite for man to conceive. The act itself could’ve been any act against God’s will. It’s our job now to learn the lessen that Adam and Eve didn’t know-that God is truly God and worthy of our love and obedience-that sin ain’t where it’s at and that the lack of God becomes hell itself. That’s what we’ve been given the opportunity to do here on this planet; to restore man’s belief in and love for God again- one of us at a time.

Mary’s redemption from sin occurred in the same way it happens for all of humankind- by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. God applies this to all humans whether born before or after the event depending on His plan for each person. Mary’s sinlessness was determined by God to be necessary for the role she was to play so He applied it at her conception.

 

[jkarp]

Adam and Eve sinned because they chose to believe a lie which promised them a “good”: that of being like God. The reason why it was possible for them to sin was because 1) they were given the freedom (freewill) to do so and 2) being creation rather than God, they lacked His perfection and so lacked His perfect will and knowledge.

I have no argument with this.

This was the original act of unbelief since disobeying God is to put ones’ own opinion on a higher level than His, which is the equivalent of believing that God is not God. As a result, according to Catholic teaching, Adam lost sanctifying grace which is the gift from God which keeps man in a state where his reason and spirit are in complete control of all of his desires and passions. Another way of thinking about it is that Adam turned away from or lost God and so became lost himself, passing this lost condition onto the whole human race because God determined that this was just and necessary for His future plans for us.

Adam fell out of grace because of his disregard for God’s instruction: he failed to guard (Hebrew: shamar) the garden and keep it free of the likes of the devil (Hebrew: *nahash, *the serpent).
Eve fell from grace because she disobeyed and “ate” the forbidden “fruit” and, in the process, caused Adam to do so as well. It is for these reasons that their punishments are what they are.

Original sin had nothing to do with sex. A few Catholic thinkers have speculated thus but this idea was rejected by the Church.

Would you please to post references to this effect? I had not read that the Catholic Church had definitively ruled that the Genesis narratives are not about sex. If the narrative has nothing whatsoever to do with sex, how are you able to explain away all of the related sexual symbolism? For example:

1. 
   *]the discussion of marriage (Gen 2:24): “this is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife and the two become one body.”
   *]nakedness: “they were naked yet they felt no shame;” and “I was afraid, because I was naked . . .”
   *]The description of the tree: “pleasing to the eyes” and “desirable”
   *]Eve’s punishment: pain in childbirth and the “urge for your husband.”
   

   It was simply the disobedience of the perfect will of a God whose perfection was too “big” or infinite for man to conceive. The act itself could’ve been any act against God’s will.

   This is true; my reply never said that interpreting it with relation to the sexual act is the only way to interpret the story, it simply said that it begins to make sense. Interpreting it in this way, however, is still a valid interpretation. By denying its validity, you are also denying an extremely fruitful and beautiful description of the intended purpose and symbolism of the sacrament of matrimony. If you are married, certainly you are able to see that this is true, if you are not married, I tell you this as a married person: it is very true.
   

   It’s our job now to learn the lessen that Adam and Eve didn’t know-that God is truly God and worthy of our love and obedience-that sin ain’t where it’s at and that the lack of God becomes hell itself. That’s what we’ve been given the opportunity to do here on this planet; to restore man’s belief in and love for God again- one of us at a time.
   
   Mary’s redemption from sin occurred in the same way it happens for all of humankind- by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. God applies this to all humans whether born before or after the event depending on His plan for each person. Mary’s sinlessness was determined by God to be necessary for the role she was to play so He applied it at her conception.

   Absolutely! Thanks be to God! Pax Christi sit semper vobiscum.

 

[MariaG]

According to Catholics, Mary was conceived immaculately without original sin, despite it not being mentioned in the Holy Scriptures. Now, this does not mean she was incapable of sinning, but the natural inclination towards evil was not within her. She did not need baptism, in short. And since she was able to never sin, she did not even need salvation from Christ.

Note please that I am a Catholic, I just don’t understand this all.

Mary’s redemption from sin occurred in the same way it happens for all of humankind- by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. God applies this to all humans whether born before or after the event depending on His plan for each person. Mary’s sinlessness was determined by God to be necessary for the role she was to play so He applied it at her conception.

Absolutely! Thanks be to God! Pax Christi sit semper vobiscum.

I see that you agree absolutely with the statement that Mary needed a savoir, a constant teaching of the Catholic Church.

Yet you stated before that she would not have needed to be redeemed by Christ if immaculately concieved. Do you truly understand?

You also said “not stated in scripture”. This tells me you are probably studying with non-Catholics who believe in scripture alone, a doctrine that actually is not taught anywhere in the same said scriptures. In fact, quite the contrary, we see in scripture where it tells us to hold fast to the written and the oral, and nowhere does it tell us that it has all been written down now, only follow the written.

Scripture also tells us the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

These are some red flags to me that you may be being decieved by those who have come along teaching falsely, using scripture to falsely bolster their position. I pray you proceed with caution(or abandon it entirely) if you are doing a bible study with non-Catholics.

But to the question of your original post, do you truly see that Mary, was redeemed by Christ, in a most unique way and was immaculately conceived rather than not needing salvation from Christ at all?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[JMMK]

There are many theories, but none are perfect. Problem with trying to understand all of this is that we can only understand history in fragments, our present partially and the future based on those two flimsy sources of information. Meanwhile God can see all three of these with perfect clarity. So we must trust in the Love of our Heavenly Father that he will not bring us to ruin.

 

[inthecloud]

A few Catholic thinkers have speculated thus but this idea was rejected by the Church.

According to Jewish tradition sex started after the Fall.
The nature of Original Sin in Jewish tradition is one of disobedience in getting the knowledge of Good and Evil regarding the capacity to give or destroy life. (Daniel Coladenco have in spanish a study Genesis with Talmud and Mishna quotes that is very interesting). The classic Talmud phrase “Who saves a life saves the world” is related to commenting the Original Sin.

 

[fhansen]

Adam fell out of grace because of his disregard for God’s instruction: he failed to guard (Hebrew: shamar) the garden and keep it free of the likes of the devil (Hebrew: *nahash, *the serpent).
Eve fell from grace because she disobeyed and “ate” the forbidden “fruit” and, in the process, caused Adam to do so as well. It is for these reasons that their punishments are what they are.

What I was getting at is that we can only speculate as to the reasons why God did it this way- keeping Adam from eating from the tree of life and living forever and allowing Adams’ sin to pass on to the whole human race - other than to say that this is a part of His plan for our salvation. Apparently sanctification came too easily for Adam, like rich kids who squander their wealth, and we can’t know but we might assume that any of us would’ve done the same. Now, on the other hand, we must come to appreciate and earn our sanctification, with Gods’ grace which Jesus won for us-the chance after all to eat from the tree of life-Jesus Himself- and live forever.

Would you please to post references to this effect? I had not read that the Catholic Church had definitively ruled that the Genesis narratives are not about sex.

My apologies. As far as I know, the Church has made no definitive statement on the nature of the sin other than to say that it was a willful act of disobedience. I guess I’ve heard enough commentaries opposed to the idea that sex was somehow part of original sin that I thought it was sort of a closed case. Ludwig Ott says that the theory is unacceptable but doesn’t back this up. On the other hand a few luminaries, including Augustine, I believe, subscribed to it. I don’t know whether Aquinas had anything to say on the matter but it would be interesting to hear from those who know. My main concern was whether or not the OPs questions were being addressed and I thought you sounded pretty definitive yourself. Anyway, speculation on the matter is always interesting and your ideas are well thought out and worthy of consideration.

 

[nkbeth]

fhansen,
I mostly agree but I have a few comments:

This was the original act of unbelief since disobeying God is to put ones’ own opinion on a higher level than His, which is the equivalent of believing that God is not God.

Every sin is disobeying God, but it’s not always an act of unbelief. I think it is like acting as if God is not God, but that is not the same as (or equivalent to) believing that God is not God. We sometimes act against our beliefs. Unbelief in something is more than just ignoring it for a while.

Adam and Eve acted against their beliefs “big time”.

… Adam lost sanctifying grace which is the gift from God which keeps man in a state where his reason and spirit are in complete control of all of his desires and passions.

We still have Sanctifying Grace today after we are baptized and as long as we commit no mortal sins (or go to confession afterwards). Sanctifying Grace is our “spiritual life”, a participation in God’s life (and all that implies). It is what we need to be saved (it makes you holy (like God)).

Although we have Sanctifying Grace, we still have the punishments (deprivation of natural gifts) that you explained.

Adam and Eve lost both the natural gifts and Sanctifying Grace when they sinned. Christ by His death made it possible for us to obtain Sanctifying Grace again - by baptism or baptism of desire. We still suffer (some more, some less) due to not having the natural gifts that Adam and Eve had. We should try to help people (including ourselves) to alleviate our problems as much as we can. But this life is not final, for Christ won eternal life for us.

…
Another way of thinking about it is that Adam turned away from or lost God and so became lost himself, passing this lost condition onto the whole human race because God determined that this was just and necessary for His future plans for us. There is much good speculation as to why God did it this way but in any case the result is the world we live in

God, the Creator, the only One qualified to determine the correct behavior of His creation.

I think you have the right idea, but I want to make things more clear (at least to me).

Adam sinned by His own free will. God (outside of time) knew that Adam would sin, and He permitted it, but did not plan it - God doesn’t plan evil. Since He knew that Adam would sin (something He didn’t cause), He did plan to justly punish him. This is God’s mystery, but a good God doesn’t cause or plan evil, or take away free will from men.

But God did plan (we cannot fathom how) to “answer” all our our sins by His mercy, for those who love Him.

The biggest answer to our sins that I can conceive is this:

We sinned in Adam, God answered in Christ!

Christ is the answer even in this life, and He’ll lead us to His eternal answer in heaven.

We must obey God. Only He truly knows good and evil; good because it is from Him, evil because it is not.

But God didn’t make creation, and then plan its correct behaviour independent of man. Our free will (by a mystery) plays a real role in the story of creation that God has freely designed. We know what we must do: obey. But we can never give up on His mercy, which is part of His incredible plan.

 

[Exalt]

Now, my question is, if God Almighty was able to create Mary in such a way so that His Redeemer Son could be born, why does God not just allow all of us to be born without original sin? Sure, a lot of us may still turn to sin, but we would not be driven towards evil as we currently are. The world would probably be a better place.

Note please that I am a Catholic, I just don’t understand this all.

It’s because it doesn’t make any sense.

You know, in every other field, you drop bad ideas and replace them with better ones.

Dunno why a religious doctrine should be any different.

 

[fhansen]

Now, my question is, if God Almighty was able to create Mary in such a way so that His Redeemer Son could be born, why does God not just allow all of us to be born without original sin? Sure, a lot of us may still turn to sin, but we would not be driven towards evil as we currently are. The world would probably be a better place.

This is like asking why God allowed Adam to sin to begin with or not remove/forgive the sin immediately after it occurred. But God didn’t allow sin to begin with inasmuch as He allowed freedom. Without freedom we don’t choose between right or wrong-our obedience is mechanical. Is it fair that some are more favored, like Mary? Who cares? We all have the opportunity for eternal life and Mary is a part of Gods’ plan to that end. This world is a trial-a test bed. Both sin and suffering play their roles in molding us, if we’re willing, into people of faith and character-by helping us to understand why obedience is right. Our freedom is not the freedom to decide what is right or what is wrong-it is the freedom to choose whether or not to obey God-the freedom to align ourselves with righteousness. Just like “virtue is its’ own reward”, in the end sin is its own punishment. If we’re satisfied that whatever use or pleasure or gain we can derive from this world is all we’ll ever get then that’s all we’ll ever get. If we set our sights higher, God will answer. If we allow ourselves to become hardened and embittered by the world, if we allow the evil we see to tell us that there is no goodness- no God-then satan wins.

The real key to it all is the love and grace and sanity which God has dropped into the middle of a crazy world with its love affair with its own freedom. To those who’ve experienced this God, He becomes very difficult to deny.

“God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” 1Pet.5:5

 

[nkbeth]

jgmes2001, (OP)

The Church answers your questions, and guides you to the One who can answer them in full. I hope I can help you a little but you should study your faith further.

[Quesions on Adam and Eve] (1. How did they sin if they had to inclination to sin? 2. Why were they punished if they had no knowledge of what good or evil were? 3. How does a fruit give knowledge to a person?

The Lord God brought forth of the ground all manner of trees, fair to behold, and pleasant to eat of: the tree of life also in the midst of paradise: and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Adam and Eve knew disobedience was evil. God told them how it would be punished (you will die the death). And it was easy for them to obey.

But one gift God gave them was free will – the greatest of all and the most dangerous. They could disobey. They could choose “me” over God, with no excuses due to bodily inclinations. The God who loves us wants our freely given love, but we can choose ourselves instead.

They sinned simply by not obeying God (they ate the fruit). God gave them His command; they did not forget it, and they disobeyed. But why on earth did they ever consider breaking His command?

They woke up that morning inclined to obey. But then evil slithered into the garden (the first evil that ever was there), Satan disguised as a serpent. Satan told Eve she would not be punished if she ate the fruit. He said:

God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil.

Eve wanted to know evil as God did (now that Satan had put it into her head). She chose to disobey God, not for the fruit, but to get what was God’s alone (the right to rule herself, and to know what He knew). The fruit was pleasant as always. So she ate of the fruit.

Perhaps Adam chose himself and Eve together over God. So he also ate of the fruit.

They opened their eyes and knew the evil in themselves. But Satan lied, for they were not at all like their All Good God. And they were horrified and ashamed of what they had done.

You are right, fruit does not give knowledge. Their horrific knowledge came from disobedience itself (not from the fruit of the forbidden tree).

[why original sin and why baptism]
Ok, not entirely sure why we should carry the stain of something we had no part in, and why baptism removes this, but let’s carry on.
.

God created Adam and Eve as the first parents, representatives, and caretakers of our family (the human race). Their sin marred our whole human nature (they WERE humanity when they sinned). God is infinitely better than “fair”; we’ll understand these things when we see Him.

Original sin explains the REALITY of suffering in the world; and CHRIST proves the reality of HOPE. I want to know the world as it ACTUALLY IS, and is well explained by the Church.

Adam and Eve’s sin separated us from God and so from heaven. GOD answered sin (our horrible offense against Him) by His mercy. He sent His only SON, so He could become man and suffer and die an excruciating death for US in order to satisfy God’s justice and open the gates of heaven again. We can’t understand this unimaginable work of God; but it is at the heart of all we believe. But when we understand a little, we think that nothing tells us better how much God loves us and how horrible sin is. Christ opened the gates of heaven for us, if we will enter in. Love God; the suffering and evil we still have are temporary and in His hands.

If we obey Christ’s command to be baptized, He joins us with God again (giving us a share in God’s life). Christ (through us) uses visible water to wash our sins away and give us spiritual life (as water gives life). Because Baptism is visible, we can know when sins are forgiven, not just feel that they are.

jgmes2001, You say The world would probably be a better place if God allowed all of us to be born without original sin.

Adam and Eve, in heaven now (and created without original sin) would disagree. Christ is God and knows His world is best of all.

Original sin is not something God “allowed us all to be born with”. It is the just and natural and perfect punishment for what we did in Adam. One day we’ll understand.

You couldn’t do it better “your way”. Trust in God’s infinite power, wisdom, knowledge and goodness, and His love for us through all eternity.

 

[blacktiger057]

I don’t know…the main part I have never gotten about this Bible story is that why should we be blamed for something we had no part in, unless our very souls decended from Adam and Eve so the karma is on our souls? But Christians do not believe in reincarnation, nor karma, so I do not see how this is logical at all.Could someone attempt to further explain this? I still do not get it.

 

[MariaG]

I don’t know…the main part I have never gotten about this Bible story is that why should we be blamed for something we had no part in, unless our very souls decended from Adam and Eve so the karma is on our souls? But Christians do not believe in reincarnation, nor karma, so I do not see how this is logical at all.Could someone attempt to further explain this? I still do not get it.

It is not that we get blamed for something. We are not “guilty” in a personal way.

It is easier to think of it like we fail to inherit something.

 

[jkarp]

Original sin is not something God “allowed us all to be born with”. It is the just and natural and perfect punishment for what we did in Adam.

Don’t forget “just;” the punishment was also just. This is very much the same thing as hell. Many people ask, “How can God allow people to go to hell?” It is because of his perfect justice.

 

[inthecloud]

don’t know…the main part I have never gotten about this Bible story is that why should we be blamed for something we had no part in, unless our very souls decended from Adam and Eve so the karma is on our souls? But Christians do not believe in reincarnation, nor karma, so I do not see how this is logical at all.Could someone attempt to further explain this? I still do not get it.

If you read Genesis in a symbolical way it makes total sense.
If you see Adam and Eve as archetypes of humanity the Original Sin is part of the human condition, a strangement from God and from the origins and the knowledge of doing evil things.
A strangement that can be undone by a God that incarnates to reconciliate their creation with Him.