Original Sin

[IrishJoe]

I was reccomended to ask my questions so here is the first one

I dont get original sin. It doesn’t seem fair or logical. Yet it is a requirement for Catholic belief. The jews dont belive in it apparantly. I would speculate that its just some form of control by the church to be honest. How is this transmitted and in what fashion and why is it transmitted. If it is transmitted by ‘birth’ what about cisarian section ? what about clones grown in test tubes ?

By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all human beings. Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called “original sin”. As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called “concupiscence”)

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I was reccomended to ask my questions so here is the first one

I dont get original sin. It doesn’t seem fair or logical. Yet it is a requirement for Catholic belief. The jews dont belive in it apparantly. I would speculate that its just some form of control by the church to be honest. How is this transmitted and in what fashion and why is it transmitted. If it is transmitted by ‘birth’ what about cisarian section ? what about clones grown in test tubes ?

By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all human beings. Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called “original sin”. As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called “concupiscence”)

Pretty much answers you questions.

 

[FuzzyBunny116]

I was reccomended to ask my questions so here is the first one

I dont get original sin. It doesn’t seem fair or logical. Yet it is a requirement for Catholic belief. The jews dont belive in it apparantly. I would speculate that its just some form of control by the church to be honest. How is this transmitted and in what fashion and why is it transmitted. If it is transmitted by ‘birth’ what about cisarian section ? what about clones grown in test tubes ?

By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all human beings. Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called “original sin”. As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called “concupiscence”)

It isn’t just? Why not? Did God OWE you something that he later took away? Even if God were to make us suffer for no reason, it would not be unjust, for we are His, and there is nothing we can have a right to before God - neither our life, nor our property, nor a right to a life without discomfort. And how does Original Sin help the Church control us?

Perhaps it is not transmitted by birth, but in conception - in other words, when the egg and sperm meet and an entirely separate creature is formed. Thus, no matter what happened after a human was created, he or she would be inflicted with original sin.

I would also ask you to look for evidence of Original Sin in your daily life. Chesterton said that Original Sin was the only doctrine that could be proved simply by looking at the daily newspaper. Why are people so wicked? Am I really to believe that somehow the human race “evolved” via Darwinism a heightened attraction towards lust, pride, greed, etc? How could these vices possibly be conducive to survival, except in very limited cases?

 

[IrishJoe]

Perhaps I should reiterate

I dont get original sin. It doesn’t seem fair or logical. Yet it is a requirement for Catholic belief. The jews dont belive in it apparantly. I would speculate that its just some form of control by the church to be honest.

**How **is this transmitted ?

and

**in what fashion **
and

**why **is it transmitted.

If it is transmitted by ‘birth’ what about cisarian section ? what about clones grown in test tubes ?

 

[IrishJoe]

It isn’t just? Why not? Did God OWE you something that he later took away?

No but equally I didn’t ask to be born. Simply by virture of exisiting I am deficient in the eyes of God.

And how does Original Sin help the Church control us?

because many of its beliefs are built on its foundation - salvation, forgiveness etc

Perhaps it is not transmitted by birth, but in conception - in other words, when the egg and sperm meet and an entirely separate creature is formed.

I am aware of what conception is. But how ? In the dna ? Its a very abstract thing. There must be a specific temporal period when it occurs.

I would also ask you to look for evidence of Original Sin in your daily life. Chesterton said that Original Sin was the only doctrine that could be proved simply by looking at the daily newspaper.

Look at japan… mostly non catholic/christan yet low crime rate, low sex crime rate especially.

Why are people so wicked? Am I really to believe that somehow the human race “evolved” via Darwinism a heightened attraction towards lust, pride, greed, etc? How could these vices possibly be conducive to survival, except in very limited cases?

they dont hence why not everyone is greedy all the time.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Let me take a crack at this…

A couple three centuries ago, my forefathers decided to move from England and Ireland to the United States. As a result my life experiences are decidedly American.

If they had remained in the U.K., my circumstances would likely be very different than they are.

In other words, there is a consequence of their decision that affects me because, in effect, I moved to the New World when they did because I was “in them”.

Similarly, when Adam and Eve made the decision to disobey God, they “moved” out of His will and out of the Garden of Eden. We’re all still living with the consequences of their decision.

BTW - I’m happy to have this analogy shot down by anyone who finds fault with it. I just sort of made it up, but I’m interested to see if it holds water.

 

[chrisse]

I think many people get bogged down with literal scriptural interpretation - rather than G-d’s Message to us in a manner that at the time would have meaning to the human mind.

Original sin = the survival instinct. We are all born with this instinct, babies are born with this instinct to survive, eg crying.

In other words when we knew death, we automatically had the need to survive. This is cruel and self-centred - my survival against your survival.

For me, with this understanding, G-d’s directions to us fall into place.

By the way, I read this analogy from Darwin’s protege (can’t recall his name right now); it just made so much sense to me on what original sin is.

 

[Nita]

[

I dont get original sin. It doesn’t seem fair or logical. Yet it is a requirement for Catholic belief. The jews dont belive in it apparantly. I would speculate that its just some form of control by the church to be honest. )](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=298128&page=3)

In what way does it seem to you that the teaching gives the church “some form of control” over us?

 

[VociMike]

Tell me what is “unfair” about original sin. Tell me what God should have done to be fair.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I was reccomended to ask my questions so here is the first one

I dont get original sin. It doesn’t seem fair or logical. Yet it is a requirement for Catholic belief. The jews dont belive in it apparantly. I would speculate that its just some form of control by the church to be honest. How is this transmitted and in what fashion and why is it transmitted. If it is transmitted by ‘birth’ what about cisarian section ? what about clones grown in test tubes ?

By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all human beings. Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called “original sin”. As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called “concupiscence”)

##** If a woman with AIDS has a child, the child will be affected - it was in its mother, & is from its mother. **

**So with OS - the first sinner has damaged the rest of us, because we his descendants are from him. The guilt of that sin is his alone; the damage inflicted by it, is his & his descendants’. **

 

[Tantum_ergo]

And of course, we have been redeemed by Christ. And Baptism washes away original sin. And we have the sacrament of reconciliation available to us on earth, and we have the hope of eternity in Heaven.

Maybe we didn’t ‘ask to be born’ --but has any human? Why should we, or any one generation, be ‘different’ from any other? Did Adam and Eve ask to be made, or to be made sinless? They were. . .yet they sinned. And yet God was still merciful… .

Are any of the ‘rules’ that the Church gives us really ‘bad’ for us? Think about it. Are any of the good things that we do really that onerous? Are any of the bad things we could choose so ‘enjoyable’ that they made doing good impossible? Not really, eh?

All the ‘rules’ the Church gives us are like pure water, fresh air, and healthy food. Water isn’t as exciting to drink as say liquor or even soda pop, fresh air (which we don’t even see) we usually don’t even bother to consider until we lose it and the air becomes too foul to breathe; and most of us would at times spurn plain healthy food for the sugary, fatty, ‘junk’ that gets hyped as being ‘better’… . . sin, likewise, is basically perverting GOOD things or trying to take MORE than we need, or taking from others.

IOW, it isn’t the rules that are the problem, any more than having gravity on earth is a problem. Without gravity, the earth would spin out of orbit and turn into a dead star, either heading away from the sun and becoming frozen, or heading into the sun and burning up.

Without rules, we head this way and that from the pure wholesome and healthy ways of living that God has given us.

 

[IrishJoe]

Similarly, when Adam and Eve made the decision to disobey God, they “moved” out of His will and out of the Garden of Eden. We’re all still living with the consequences of their decision.

BTW - I’m happy to have this analogy shot down by anyone who finds fault with it. I just sort of made it up, but I’m interested to see if it holds water.

Yes but one would think that God would be more intelligent than that.

Tell me what is “unfair” about original sin. Tell me what God should have done to be fair.

make everyone immaculatly concieved

The guilt of that sin is his alone; the damage inflicted by it, is his & his descendants’.

then god wasn’t very clever… hmm I will make humans but if just ONE of them screws up then they are all damned. aahhahaah

 

[fellowChristian]

Adam and Eve were innocent and holy when they came from the hand of God.They were gifted with every virtue and free from every sin.The **chief blessings **, or gifts, intended for Adam and Eve, had they remained faithful to God, were a constant state of happiness in this life and everlasting glory in the next.

Adam and Eve did not remain faithful to God; but broke His command by eating the forbidden fruit.On account of their sin lost innocence and holiness, and were doomed to misery and death.On account of the disobedience of our first parents, we all share in their sin and punishment, as we should have shared in their happiness if they had remained faithful.

This sin is called original because it comes down to us from our first parents, and we are brought into the world with its guilt on our soul. This corruption of our nature and other punishments remain in us after original sin is forgiven.

We inherit this sin like we inherit the color of our hair or the color of our eyes from our parents.It is not an Actual sin, a willful thought, word, deed, or omission contrary to the law of God that we ourselves commit.

We inherit this when we are concieved.No matter how or where we are conceived.

Adam and Eve were given their gifts first then tested to see if they could keep them. They failed and God took the gifts away.We were born without these gifts so we must prove ourselves to get them. Is one way of looking at it.

Another is this…

If our president says we are going to war then with or without your approval we are going to war. He is the head of our nation much like Adam is the head of all our descendants.

or

If one man pees upriver it effects everyone downriver

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Joe, hon, Adam and Eve were also made without sin. . .

Do you really think that Mary ‘could NOT’ have sinned because she was conceived immaculately? And that she had a ‘break’ which everybody thus should have? Then you’ve made an error which you’ll need to correct.

No, Mary and Jesus were the new Adam and Eve not because they ‘could not have sinned’ but indeed because they could have sinned but freely chose **not **to sin.

I can’t emphasize this strongly enough–if Adam and Eve, who were created without sin, could sin, then anybody could be ‘conceived without sin’ and yet, still sin.

And I repeat --we are all redeemed if we choose to accept that redemption. We aren’t forced into a perpetual state of personal sin due to our ‘tendency’ to sin–instead, we are given the tremendous opportunity to join ourselves to Jesus in His redemptive sacrifice every time we fight and reject sin! We have as much, indeed more, opportunity to make ourselves ‘good’ as we do to make ourselves evil.

It comes down to a trust issue.

Either we trust that God, who is infinitely wiser than we, knows what He is doing. . .or we don’t. We think that we, with our limited and fallible human reason, are wiser than God, more just than God. We don’t trust Him, we trust only ourselves and our ‘reason’. That is a path to separation from God --deliberate rejection based not on God’s ‘actions’ but our own lack of faith, hope, and love for God. Most people don’t really want to look deep inside themselves and see this as the reason they reject God, and so they come up with all sorts of justifications and try to paint God as evil and themselves as ‘shining champions of goodness’. It’s pride, pure and simple–pride in ‘humanity’ as being ‘better’ than God.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Yes but one would think that God would be more intelligent than that.

Actually, one would think that Adam and Eve should have been more intelligent than that.

 

[VociMike]

Tell me what is “unfair” about original sin. Tell me what God should have done to be fair.

How would that be better? Adam and Eve were created without the effects of original sin, but that didn’t keep them from sinning. The angels were created without the effects of original sin, but 1/3 of them rebelled against God anyway.

So you haven’t yet demonstrated that causing everyone to be immaculately conceived would be in any way more fair.

 

[IrishJoe]

It would give everyone an equal chance that’s how it would be fair. Then if people sinned they could get forgiveness.

Adam and Eve did not remain faithful to God; but broke His command by eating the forbidden fruit.On account of their sin lost innocence and holiness, and were doomed to misery and death.On account of the disobedience of our first parents, we all share in their sin and punishment, as we should have shared in their happiness if they had remained faithful.

‘the sins of the father are not passed onto the son’

This corruption of our nature and other punishments remain in us after original sin is forgiven.

right the next time I see a rapists son I will stick pins in his eyes as he deserves to be punished for what his father did.
I do not see the logic or fairness there.

Adam and Eve were given their gifts first then tested to see if they could keep them. They failed and God took the gifts away.We were born without these gifts so we must prove ourselves to get them. Is one way of looking at it.

Tested. Why test them ? Did god not love them so much that he just seen them as an experiment or amusement to be ‘tested’ and thenforced to come begging for mercy? That’s pretty depraved. I dont test my loved ones and I’m not God.

And I repeat --we are all redeemed if we choose to accept that redemption. We aren’t forced into a perpetual state of personal sin due to our ‘tendency’ to sin–instead, we are given the tremendous opportunity to join ourselves to Jesus in His redemptive sacrifice every time we fight and reject sin! We have as much, indeed more, opportunity to make ourselves ‘good’ as we do to make ourselves evil.

then why not give us that choice ourselves ? It does not appear to be repsecting our free will.
Also we are then pigeon holed into accepting Jesus by making it necessary that all are saved through him simply by being born. Its essentailly saying that people are damned for no reason just for being alive even if they have done nothing or have no capacity to sin.

 

[VociMike]

It would give everyone an equal chance that’s how it would be fair. Then if people sinned they could get forgiveness.

Yeah, that’s like a basic tennet of Christianity.

‘the sins of the father are not passed onto the son’

Tell that to a son who’s father squandered all of his inheritance.

right the next time I see a rapists son I will stick pins in his eyes as he deserves to be punished for what his father did.
I do not see the logic or fairness there.

Anybody who wants to go to heaven can do so. So how is that unfair?

Tested. Why test them ? Did god not love them so much that he just seen them as an experiment or amusement to be ‘tested’ and thenforced to come begging for mercy? That’s pretty depraved. I dont test my loved ones and I’m not God.

I don’t like the “tested” line of thought either. Rather, I prefer to see it as all people being offered a free choice to choose God or choose the alternative.

then why not give us that choice ourselves ? It does not appear to be repsecting our free will.

What choice? We each are given the only choice that truly matters.

Also we are then pigeon holed into accepting Jesus by making it necessary that all are saved through him simply by being born. Its essentailly saying that people are damned for no reason just for being alive even if they have done nothing or have no capacity to sin.

Everybody has a choice. What could possibly be more fair? You seem to be against giving people the choice of their own salvation.

 

[Ralph_Macdonald]

And of course, we have been redeemed by Christ. And Baptism washes away original sin. And we have the sacrament of reconciliation available to us on earth, and we have the hope of eternity in Heaven.

Maybe we didn’t ‘ask to be born’ --but has any human? Why should we, or any one generation, be ‘different’ from any other? Did Adam and Eve ask to be made, or to be made sinless? They were. . .yet they sinned. And yet God was still merciful… .

Are any of the ‘rules’ that the Church gives us really ‘bad’ for us? Think about it. Are any of the good things that we do really that onerous? Are any of the bad things we could choose so ‘enjoyable’ that they made doing good impossible? Not really, eh?

All the ‘rules’ the Church gives us are like pure water, fresh air, and healthy food. Water isn’t as exciting to drink as say liquor or even soda pop, fresh air (which we don’t even see) we usually don’t even bother to consider until we lose it and the air becomes too foul to breathe; and most of us would at times spurn plain healthy food for the sugary, fatty, ‘junk’ that gets hyped as being ‘better’… . . sin, likewise, is basically perverting GOOD things or trying to take MORE than we need, or taking from others.

IOW, it isn’t the rules that are the problem, any more than having gravity on earth is a problem. Without gravity, the earth would spin out of orbit and turn into a dead star, either heading away from the sun and becoming frozen, or heading into the sun and burning up.

Without rules, we head this way and that from the pure wholesome and healthy ways of living that God has given us.

 

[Ralph_Macdonald]

When did the thief on the cross next to Jesus get baptized, yet his sin was forgiven, as Jesus said “today you will be with me in paradise”. Baptism does not take away sin,it is an outword sign showing that we have been saved.The blood of Christ is the only thing that can take away sin, we must come to Him and receive Him as our personal Savior, then our sins will be forgiven. Amen. Ralph