V
VociMike
Guest
Are you saying that every person in history who has been baptized has been saved?
- Status
G
GJx86
Guest
How do you know that he wasn’t baptized? Does the Bible say that he wasn’t baptized?
A
AndyF
Guest
Interesting request. From a purely subjective view, and being wholly inadequate to venture on a complex issue such has this…
It would seem the problem lies in the establishment of norms and principles when judicial systems are devised. Every discussion approaches it after the fact, and I feel the solution lies before this. References are basically in the trial of angels time period.
1/I find no evidence that the principle “no one is advantaged or disadvantaged in the choice of principles by their natural or social endowments”. (Rawls, “A Theory of Justice.” ) is being considered.
ie: In regards to punitive measures, if angels cannot procreate and therefore are exempt in receiving punitive stigmatization, then we should find potential cases against humans receiving this benefit has well.
2/ I think all cases of beings should be judged on not only the affront to God, but the means that assisted the affront.This is because justice also serves to reveal the mechanism or methods to sin in the spirit of prevention.
ie: In the case of the angels the means was found to be that the group has a common method or conduit for communication which can and was misused. Species/Genus then becomes irrelevant. The case concluded that what they have in common in attributes “gives birth to/creates/plants the seed for)” the potential for sin in another. The “procreation” of sin overrides I think.
3/ The next event was a logical step to me. Having found a celestial realm of fallible beings with still the potential to re-enact the event, they were “prevented” from sinning. The reason given is that they earned the gift by their choice they made. Weather that was such a difficult challenging one is questionable…actually seeing the Creator and those who made a wrong choice in eternal turmoil I mean.
So I don’t know but this is from the information I know. I wish someone would come up with the right answer to this puzzle.
Andy
G
guanophore
Guest
God’s ways are as far above our ways as the east is from the west. What seems “fair or logical” to our puny minds may be in incomprehensible mystery.
What do you think happened in the garden of Eden?
And why would such a thing be necessary or important?
It happens at conception. I think a discussion of this would have to start with Adam and Eve. However I have not finished reading hte thread, so maybe someone go to it already?
What is it about this that is problematic?
Through procreation
Ps 51:5
5 Indeed, I was born guilty,
a sinner when my mother conceived me.
God made us in His own image and likeness, with the ability to procreate. However, Adam and Eve were disobedient to the limits he set for them. The consequence of their disobedience is exactly what He told them in the beginning - death.
No, you are in the eyes of God created in His image and likeness… He created you to walk in the works that He prepared beforehand for you. You must be justified before Him, however, before you can do this.
You are wrong, IrishJoe. The Church is built upon Jesus Christ, the author and finisher of our lives. Our theology about salvation does relate to original sin, but the purpose of the Church was to make a way for us to be reunited to God.
Sin transcends time and space. It exists in both the physical and spiritual planes. When a human is created, original sin enters into the physical plane.
G
guanophore
Guest
So, you basically think there should be no consequences for sin. God may create boundaries for us, but if we do not stay within them, oh well?
God was merciful to us, even in our disobedience. He did not want us to live forever separated from Him, so He made a plan to get us back in right relationsip with Him.
Everyone IS on equal footing. If people sin,they can get forgiveness.
No, they are not. Just the consequences.
No one can be in the presence of God who is stained with sin. God has made a way for us to be cleaned. Those that decided to do so may have their sins washed away.
That is because you cannot see from God’s point of view.
You give your loved one’s choices. That is what it means to be made in the image and likeness of God.
He does! He desires all to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. He urges us to choose life.
Oh, there is plenty of reason. We don’t have any right to eternal life with God. It is a free gift.
No, you need not accept His sacrifice on your behalf. You are not pigeon holed.
I
IrishJoe
Guest
but its not a choice. Follow this way or die. and if we choose the other we are heretics or whatever. A fair choice would be to not have to chose either and to have no negative effects. Unless of course we just die and then thats it.
This made me think, I am not agaisnt giving people a choice in being saved. but why must the default be damnation? The more I think about this the more I realise that I am probably some sort of thesitic agnostic. Its opt out of damnation rather than opt out of salvation.
sacramentaly speaking I thought it does.
political power
I dont agree with it. Ergo there is problem
that could just be that particular individual
I dont find it seves that purpose for me. Maybe religon/faith isn’t the answer
B
babesinarms
Guest
You won’t find your faith in mere words alone, only when you are ready to recognise the Divine within yourself, then you will fall on bended knee and exclaim, “My Lord and my Saviour”.
V
VociMike
Guest
Why isn’t it a choice? Major life choices do have consequences, and your objection seems to be that you don’t like one of the sets of consequences. But why not? Who are you to say that people should not be able to freely choose separation from God? What gives you the right to want that choice taken from them? What gives you the right to want them to spend eternity with God when they really, really don’t want to?
I don’t agree that there is a default. I think everybody gets a choice, which means there is no default.
I
IrishJoe
Guest
the default is hell.
G
guanophore
Guest
How is that not a choice?
Deut 30:19-20
19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live, 20 loving the LORD your God, obeying him, and holding fast to him; for that means life to you and length of days,
God wanted people to love Him freely, not slaves. He gave us choice so that we could choose to have fellowship with HIm forever. God knew that sin could separate us from Him, so He forbid it. Adam and Eve chose what was forbidden, and separated themselves from the Creator who made them out of Love.
I think it is a mistake to apply our fallen notion of “fair” to God. Basically what you are saying is that we should have no obligation to our creator, to live in the manner He designed for us to live. You are making the same mistake as Adam and Eve, wanting for yourself to decide what is “fair” what is “good” and what is “evil”.
So, what brings you here?
This is your perogative.
God made you with free will, just as He did Adam and Eve. You can reject Him if you choose. You don’t have to agree with His parameters for His creation.Maybe not. Lucifer also said “I will not serve” the creator.
I
IrishJoe
Guest
its not a fair choice, its a biaased to to the threat of hell.
yes if we had true free will and that was respeced then we should have no obligation but i would imagine that many would (and presumably do) choose to work towards Gods goals. That said if one doesn’t why are they punished? It seems to reflect the capricious god of the old testament down to a T
A catholic priest once said that I am of course free to become a protestant. It was a statement of fact but the timing was interesting. Many discussions on the Catholic faith recenlty have come down to ‘turn or burn’ as I see it. Well I’m not turning without reason as it would be a lie, so I will have to just wait to see if I burn.
That makes no sense. I find that the church doesnt serve its purporse in regards to me. So what the church is satan now ? I am not refusing to serve anyone - I would just need good reason to do it and from my recent time spend here it seems that Catholicism for all its rules and doctrines is not a good reason.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
This is incorrect, Joe.
The Church does not teach that those who do not know Christ through no fault of their own are damned.
Salvation is possible. Here is what Catholic Answers’ own Jimmy Akin had to say on this subject:
If a person is innocently ignorant of his obligation to join the Church then God will not hold this against him, but will make it possible for him to be saved anyway.
One is innocently ignorant if he has not seen sufficient evidence for the truth of the Catholic faith (given his mental faculties and any opposing evidence he has been given by anti-Catholics). But if one has seen sufficient evidence, or if he has seen enough evidence that he should investigate further but has failed to do so, his ignorance is not innocent.
Even for those who are innocently ignorant, salvation is not achieved without some union with the Church. As Catholic teaching makes clear, one can be united with the Church in a way that does not involve full incorporation into it. Only Catholics are fully incorporated, though non-Catholics who are in a state of grace are linked with it (to use Vatican II’s terminology), even if they are unaware of this.
Vatican II stated: “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation. Nor shall divine providence deny the assistance necessary for salvation to those who, without any fault of theirs, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, and who, not without grace, strive to lead a good life. . . . But very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, have exchanged the truth of God for a lie and served the world rather than the Creator (cf. Rom. 1:21 and 25). Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair. Hence, to procure the glory of God and the salvation of all these, the Church, mindful of the Lord’s command, ‘preach the Gospel to every creature’ (Mark 16:16) takes zealous care to foster the missions” (Lumen Gentium 16).
taken from:
The Necessity of Being Catholic
by James Akin
chnetwork.org/journals/nesschurch/ness_7.htm
V
VociMike
Guest
No, there is no default. Everybody makes a choice.
What you seem to want is a choice between heaven and heaven, so it’s “fair”.
I
IrishJoe
Guest
why can they not choose either. If they do not wish to choose either heaven or hell then they are being forced. The requirements for hell are easier so it is then the default.
That is interesting Randy. I dont think I have sufficient evidence yet. Ever since my search for a greater understanding it has gone downhill. If you see my first post here you will see that it was after trying to learn more that I began to disagree with it.
That is interesting Randy. I dont think I have sufficient evidence yet. Ever since my search for a greater understanding it has gone downhill. If you see my first post here you will see that it was after trying to learn more that I began to disagree with it.
I have a desire for truth but I dont find evidence of this in the RCC. Yet by virture of being born in ireland and therefore being stastically catholic it is the one I would seek first for answers although as i said in my first thread travelling has exposed me to other types of chrisitan which while i disagree with aren’t as vehimently rules based as the RCC one. So I do not wish to be rcc (i think) yet I wish to understand. I cannot do this weather due to lack of faith or understanding or both.
G
guanophore
Guest
So, fair would be a choice between “good” and “better”?
We are standing in the gate of hell. I is up to us if we wish to continue standing there, progress further inside, or exit.
Why would you not?
Punishment has fallen upon us. That is how the world works. Many times people pay a price for things of which they are not personally guilty.
For example, I know that my tax dollars are being used to murder babies in their mother’s womb. I work hard against this social policy,but I still inherit the consequence of this sin. America is no longer one nation, under God.
So, you have made your choice!
No need to wait, though. The consequences of this choice start in the here and now. The one who does not render unto God that which is God’s will reap what he sows.
Really? What type of service did you want the Church to provide to you?
In the ancient sense of the word satan used as “adversary” then yes. The Church’s duty is to oppose evil, wrongdoing, and disbelief. If you are persistent in your refusal to believe, then you will find yourself at odds with the Church.
You are right.Catholicism is not based on “reason” it is based on faith. Without faith, it is impossible to please God. Once a person has faith, then things start to make sense in the realm of reason.
It is likely that there is an objection to the moral teachings of the church at work.
Limited choices does not equate to force. We start on the road to hell, because one who does not believe is condemned already.
Turth can be found in many places. The Catholic church holds the fullness, but many encounter it elsewhere, and are later drawn into the fullness. Yet by virture of being born in ireland and therefore being stastically catholic it is the one I would seek first for answers although as i said in my first thread travelling has exposed me to other types of chrisitan which while i disagree with aren’t as vehimently rules based as the RCC one.
I do strongly encourage you to thoroughly investigate the source of your objections. for example, you keep mentioning RC “rules” which may indicate that you have an objection to moral teaching. If this is the case, then it would behoove you to understand why the Church has that “rule”.
Your situation is not uncommon at all. I recommend the library here, and Christiopher West’s CD’s on the theology of the Body.
R
Ralph_Macdonald
Guest
I am saying that baptism does not take away original sin, only the blood of Christ can take away sin and He alone can forgive sin. The catholic church cannot save anyone,no more than the baptist church that I go to can save anyone. The catholic church seems to hold that tradition and the bible are on an equal basis. I disagree with this. Tradition is passed along by practise of what people did (subject to change), the bible is the word of God and does not change. I stand on the Word of God, the Bible, Ralph.
R
Ralph_Macdonald
Guest
R
Ralph_Macdonald
Guest
I cannot find it in the Bible that Mary was immaculately conceived, or is this something that comes from the catholic church. Ralph
F
FCEGM
Guest
This is true of Mary (who could have sinned, but didn’t), but not of the Lord Who, being God, could not sin.
G
guanophore
Guest
Of course it is the blood of Jesus that cleanses us from sin. His cleaning blood is applied to us through baptism. Baptism washes away all sin original and personal.
Acts 22:15-16
16 And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name.’
Jesus saves. He founded a Church through which He intended to provide all that we need to be saved.
Do you know where your bible came from Ralph? It is a 100% product of tradition. How could something inferior produce something superior?
If you cannot trust God to watch over His word and protect it, then you can’t trust anything you read in the Bible, since it was all in the form of Sacred tradition before it was written. Do you know how many generations there were between Abraham and Moses? Why do you doubt God’s ability to preserve His word?
Well, that word of God says that baptism washes away sins. Whaddya know about that!
This teaching, just like your New Testament, came from the Catholic Church.
- Status