Original Sin

[IrishJoe]

We are standing in the gate of hell. I is up to us if we wish to continue standing there, progress further inside, or exit.

well I could happily stand there I think. That way I wouldnt have to lie to myself about God and equally I wouldnt have to oppose him by going into hell. Maybe that makes me agnostic ?

Why would you not?

who is to say that I do not do good in the world ?

For example, I know that my tax dollars are being used to murder babies in their mother’s womb. I work hard against this social policy,but I still inherit the consequence of this sin. America is no longer one nation, under God.

you can choose not to pay your taxes.

No need to wait, though. The consequences of this choice start in the here and now. The one who does not render unto God that which is God’s will reap what he sows.

I do not understand what you mean by this, can you clarify please? I get that its a biblical reference.

• That makes no sense. I find that the church doesnt serve its purporse in regards to me.*
  Really? What type of service did you want the Church to provide to you?

to help/enable people/me to ‘know god to serve him and love him in this world and the next’

Once a person has faith, then things start to make sense in the realm of reason.

No then one will bend their reasoning to fit their faith. Its called bias.

Limited choices does not equate to force. We start on the road to hell, because one who does not believe is condemned already.

limiting ones choices are a method of coercion.

I do strongly encourage you to thoroughly investigate the source of your objections. for example, you keep mentioning RC “rules” which may indicate that you have an objection to moral teaching. If this is the case, then it would behoove you to understand why the Church has that “rule”.

I’ve heard that one before. Yet I dont belive in sex before marrige or homosexual practise or contraception or abortion or any of the ‘hotcakes’ of catholicsm.However I don’t agree with the churchs explination of contraception and NFP. for example, as it seems totally hypocritial . Most of my moral belives are *consistent *with catholic teaching though not inspite of it as sometimes I find the reasoning a bit thin.

The rules I refer to are the ones that (for example) state that I cannot deny the immacualte conception for example as it is infallible, or that I cannot recieve communion as I dont think its actually god but also then the clashing one that says I must recieve communion around easter time. These are all rules of the church. Rules which I cannot in good consciounce follow. (Someone mentioned about honour, earlier on. It would not be honourable for me to get Communion) Hence I have a problem with the rules.
I thought maybe that I was exhibiting humility, in thinking that maybe I dont actually understand them fully (possibly from all the uber trads saying ‘you dont agree? oh its because you dont understand!’ {say in the most condescending voice possible and you might realise how irritating it is}) but I realise that its not humility. Its stupidity. I didn’t agree first time round , I’ve tried a second so I am stupid for trying a third time.

This is true of Mary (who could have sinned, but didn’t), but not of the Lord Who, being God, could not sin.

that is wrong, he had to have been able to sin, otherwise there was no point in him being human and no point in him being tempted in the desert according to the RCC teaching if I recall correctly.

I cannot find it in the Bible that Mary was immaculately conceived, or is this something that comes from the catholic church. Ralph

its a ‘tradition’ made in the 1800s

Of course it is the blood of Jesus that cleanses us from sin. His cleaning blood is applied to us through baptism. Baptism washes away all sin original and personal.

it is not water? I dont recall the transusbstantiated wine being poured on anyone!

Do you know where your bible came from Ralph? It is a 100% product of tradition. How could something inferior produce something superior?

easily, see distrubuted computing for example or the theory of Evolution.

 

[VociMike]

I cannot find it in the Bible that Mary was immaculately conceived, or is this something that comes from the catholic church. Ralph

Can you find in the bible a list of the books of the bible?

 

[Ralph_Macdonald]

Of course it is the blood of Jesus that cleanses us from sin. His cleaning blood is applied to us through baptism. Baptism washes away all sin original and personal.
Acts 22:15-16
16 And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name.’
If baptism takes away sin,why call on His name. It"s calling on Him that takes away the sin.

Jesus saves. He founded a Church through which He intended to provide all that we need to be saved.Who belongs to Gods church?

Do you know where your bible came from Ralph? It is a 100% product of tradition. How could something inferior produce something superior? I suggest you look at2 Tim 3:16.

If you cannot trust God to watch over His word and protect it, then you can’t trust anything you read in the Bible, since it was all in the form of Sacred tradition before it was written. Do you know how many generations there were between Abraham and Moses? Why do you doubt God’s ability to preserve His word?

Well, that word of God says that baptism washes away sins. Whaddya know about that! A baby does not know how to call the Lord. The bible does not indicate any infants being baptised.

This teaching, just like your New Testament, came from the Catholic Church.

Read,I say again 2 Tim 3:16

 

[guanophore]

well I could happily stand there I think. That way I wouldnt have to lie to myself about God and equally I wouldnt have to oppose him by going into hell. Maybe that makes me agnostic ?

Do you think it is not possible to know God?

who is to say that I do not do good in the world ?

Catholics would say that is up to God to decide.

you can choose not to pay your taxes.

The consequences are very unpleasant, speaking of coercion!

I do not understand what you mean by this, can you clarify please? I get that its a biblical reference.

Right living is available right here, right now. One does not have to wait until death to see the consequences of their actions.

to help/enable people/me to ‘know god to serve him and love him in this world and the next’

By golly! You were paying attention in catechism.

No then one will bend their reasoning to fit their faith. Its called bias.

What happy bias! If one has embraced infinite truth, then one can be certain that faith seeking understanding will be a fruitful use of reason.

limiting ones choices are a method of coercion.

Well, we see it differently. If I put cages on the doors so my two year old will not get paint on himself or get near the construction equipment, have I “coerced” him by limiting his freedom of movement?

I’ve heard that one before. Yet I dont belive in sex before marrige or homosexual practise or contraception or abortion or any of the ‘hotcakes’ of catholicsm.However I don’t agree with the churchs explination of contraception and NFP. for example, as it seems totally hypocritial .

Let’s talk after you read theology of the body.

Most of my moral belives are *consistent *with catholic teaching though not *inspite of it* as sometimes I find the reasoning a bit thin.

The rules I refer to are the ones that (for example) state that I cannot deny the immacualte conception for example as it is infallible, or that I cannot recieve communion as I dont think its actually god but also then the clashing one that says I must recieve communion around easter time.

I can see why this would be a problem. But these rules are for Catholics, and if you are an agnostic, they don’t apply in that way.

These are all rules of the church. Rules which I cannot in good consciounce follow. (Someone mentioned about honour, earlier on. It would not be honourable for me to get Communion) Hence I have a problem with the rules.

I don’t understand this. If you are not Catholic, why would you be following them? If you are Catholic, why can you not?

 

[guanophore]

I thought maybe that I was exhibiting humility, in thinking that maybe I dont actually understand them fully (possibly from all the uber trads saying ‘you dont agree? oh its because you dont understand!’ {say in the most condescending voice possible and you might realise how irritating it is}) but I realise that its not humility. Its stupidity. I didn’t agree first time round , I’ve tried a second so I am stupid for trying a third time.

Most of us have aspects of the faith we cannot understand. the faith is based on mysteries beyond the capacity of human reason. Of course there are so many things we cannot understand. If we could apprehend all truth by reason, then there would be no need for faith.

A faithful Catholic can have mental reservations. Faith and understanding

156 What moves us to believe is not the fact that revealed truths appear as true and intelligible in the light of our natural reason: we believe “because of the authority of God himself who reveals them, who can neither deceive nor be deceived”.28 So "that the submission of our faith might nevertheless be in accordance with reason, God willed that external proofs of his Revelation should be joined to the internal helps of the Holy Spirit."29 Thus the miracles of Christ and the saints, prophecies, the Church’s growth and holiness, and her fruitfulness and stability “are the most certain signs of divine Revelation, adapted to the intelligence of all”; they are “motives of credibility” (motiva credibilitatis), which show that the assent of faith is “by no means a blind impulse of the mind”.30

157 Faith is certain. It is more certain than all human knowledge because it is founded on the very word of God who cannot lie. To be sure, revealed truths can seem obscure to human reason and experience, but "the certainty that the divine light gives is greater than that which the light of natural reason gives."31 "Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt."32

158 “Faith seeks understanding”:33 it is intrinsic to faith that a believer desires to know better the One in whom he has put his faith, and to understand better what He has revealed; a more penetrating knowledge will in turn call forth a greater faith, increasingly set afire by love. The grace of faith opens "the eyes of your hearts"34 to a lively understanding of the contents of Revelation: that is, of the totality of God’s plan and the mysteries of faith, of their connection with each other and with Christ, the center of the revealed mystery. "The same Holy Spirit constantly perfects faith by his gifts, so that Revelation may be more and more profoundly understood."35 In the words of St. Augustine, "I believe, in order to understand; and I understand, the better to believe."36

159 Faith and science: "Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth."37 "Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are."38

that is wrong, he had to have been able to sin, otherwise there was no point in him being human and no point in him being tempted in the desert according to the RCC teaching if I recall correctly.

No, he could not sin, because He was God.

I cannot find it in the Bible that Mary was immaculately conceived, or is this something that comes from the catholic church. Ralph

its a ‘tradition’ made in the 1800s

No, actually, it is a Tradition that was made before the foundation of the world.

But it becomes evident when we see the greeting of the angel to Mary, who called her by this title"hail, One Who Has Been Graced". She was preserved from original sin because the flesh fo the Saviour came from her flesh, and could have no taint.
"guanophore:

Of course it is the blood of Jesus that cleanses us from sin. His cleaning blood is applied to us through baptism. Baptism washes away all sin original and personal.

it is not water? I dont recall the transusbstantiated wine being poured on anyone!

Actually, water is only one of the forms by which the blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin.
"guanophore:

Do you know where your bible came from Ralph? It is a 100% product of tradition. How could something inferior produce something superior?

easily, see distrubuted computing for example or the theory of Evolution.

Ok, I will give you that one!

If the people that wrote the documents and the Church that preserved, protected promulgated and published them were not protected from error, then how can we trust what is written in them?

 

[IrishJoe]

Do you think it is not possible to know God?

Undecided.

The consequences are very unpleasant, speaking of coercion!

exactly my point… so it is not really a fair choice otherwise catholics in American and elsewhere would not pay taxes as they fund infantcide

By golly! You were paying attention in catechism

er no… I never was catechised actually. I only found out that such a thing existed about 2 1/2-3 years ago and got one and read it. I tend to retain what I read in books.

What happy bias! If one has embraced infinite truth, then one can be certain that faith seeking understanding will be a fruitful use of reason.

no it will still be biased.

Well, we see it differently. If I put cages on the doors so my two year old will not get paint on himself or get near the construction equipment, have I “coerced” him by limiting his freedom of movement?

you have limited him, you are not however threatening bad things to him, or replacing the paint with acid. We are limited also - I cannot fly or make things spontaneously combust by my force of will for example. (cool as that would be!)

Let’s talk after you read theology of the body.

no time, or inclination. I cannot afford, time wise or financially to read every book i get reccomended.

But these rules are for Catholics, and if you are an agnostic, they don’t apply in that way.
I don’t understand this. If you are not Catholic, why would you be following them? If you are Catholic, why can you not?

I’m not saying that I am an agnostic, I’m just saying it seems like what I should be. I dont adhere to labels anyway. But I cannot follow catholicisms rules as I do not agree with them.

A faithful Catholic can have mental reservations. Faith and understanding

Mental reservations? Your speil from the CCC didn’t exactly explain mental reservation. Also it seems dishonest I dont think that ‘I will eat this eucharist on the possibility that its real’ cuts it in catholcsm.

No, he could not sin, because He was God.

then there was absolutely no point in him ‘humbling’ himself to share our human experience, no point in him being tempted - he was essentially a robot. Which means that if that is true that there is no point whatsoever in Christianity.

But it becomes evident when we see the greeting of the angel to Mary, who called her by this title"hail, One Who Has Been Graced". She was preserved from original sin because the flesh fo the Saviour came from her flesh, and could have no taint.

thats limiting God. If god truely loved humanity then I dont think he’d care about some notion of original sin that wasn’t even Mary’s fault. If that is the case then God is very limited.

Actually, water is only one of the forms by which the blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin.

Well fire and desire dont sound like blood to me. At least water is a liquid!

If the people that wrote the documents and the Church that preserved, protected promulgated and published them were not protected from error, then how can we trust what is written in them?

we cannot.

 

[guanophore]

er no… I never was catechised actually. I only found out that such a thing existed about 2 1/2-3 years ago and got one and read it. I tend to retain what I read in books.

Awesome!

no it will still be biased.

Of course! But if your bias is in the direction if infinite truth, what happy bias.!

you have limited him, you are not however threatening bad things to him, or replacing the paint with acid. We are limited also - I cannot fly or make things spontaneously combust by my force of will for example. (cool as that would be!)

I think this is a good point. We are created with limitations, and it is incumbent upon us to recognize and live within them.

But I cannot follow catholicisms rules as I do not agree with them.

This is a strange statement. If we were not able to follow rules with which we did not agree, then society would run amok! I don’t like a lot of the speed limits, but I follow them (mostly out of coercion, since I think tickets are wasteful).

Mental reservations? Your speil from the CCC didn't exactly explain mental reservation.

It means that one can question, and be unsure, yet still be obedient, or at least not resistant. None of us are expected to have “perfect faith” or understanding. We walk by the light of what we have, and seek more light.

 Also it seems dishonest I dont think that 'I will eat this eucharist on the possibility that its real' cuts it in catholcsm.

Sometimes, especially in the case of mysteries, the mind is defied my articles of faith. For example, I cannot wrap my mind around the concept of the Eucharist. I accept it by faith, but it does not make any logical sense to me.

then there was absolutely no point in him 'humbling' himself to share our human experience, no point in him being tempted - he was essentially a robot. Which means that if that is true that there is no point whatsoever in Christianity.

Well, we have a difference of opinion about the nature of humanity. For me, true freedom is the ability to choose the good. I do not believe it is necessary to sin, and that God has given us the ability to walk in His presence in righteousness. This, however, requires that I choose the good. I think the robotic description better fits those that are enslaved to sin.

thats limiting God. If god truely loved humanity then I dont think he'd care about some notion of original sin that wasn't even Mary's fault. If that is the case then God is very limited.

God chooses to work within the boundaries of the humanity that He created. He chose to work through humans to manifest Himself to the world. He chose to send His Son, born in the flesh, to redeem the flesh of mankind. The fact that He chose to operate this way does not “limit” Him. He could have sent Christ fully formed as a man, if He chose.

Well fire and desire dont sound like blood to me. At least water is a liquid!

Baptism means to plunge (dip) or steep in fluid. We can be plunged into other things such as fire and suffering. God is not limiited in how He chooses to dip us. He gave us baptism as the normative means of entering into the Kingdom. It is we who are bound by HIs commandments.

we cannot.

Well, some of us believe that we can! We believe that God is omnipotent, and is able to preserve His Word to us.

 

[IrishJoe]

Of course! But if your bias is in the direction if infinite truth, what happy bias.!

Truth should not need bias to win support. Truth is able to support itself by simply being true. Bias is a distortion of the truth on behalf of the percieving person.

It means that one can question, and be unsure, yet still be obedient, or at least not resistant. None of us are expected to have “perfect faith” or understanding. We walk by the light of what we have, and seek more light.

Interesting, but that is being unsure and obedient. I do not wish to be obedient to the church and I am resistant to her rules as I do not agree with them. I am of course unsure which is why I am here!

 

[guanophore]

Truth should not need bias to win support. Truth is able to support itself by simply being true. Bias is a distortion of the truth on behalf of the percieving person.

I agree with you about Truth, but the problem is not with the Truth itself, but our inability to perceive it. For example, Pilate had Truth standing in front of him, but did not recognize Him. He smirked “and what is Truth”? The fact is that we are all biased, and unable to be objective.

Interesting, but that is being unsure and obedient. I do not wish to be obedient to the church and I am resistant to her rules as I do not agree with them. I am of course unsure which is why I am here!

Glad you are here, IrishJoe. Hope you find your surety. There is great liberty in being obedient.

 

[IrishJoe]

,

Pilate had Truth standing in front of him, but did not recognize Him. He smirked “and what is Truth”? The fact is that we are all biased, and unable to be objective.

it could have been a genuine question

 

[guanophore]

,

it could have been a genuine question

I am sure it was. He did not want a genuine answer, though, or he would not have put the source of the answer to death.

 

[fellowChristian]

Sometimes we forget what the cross was made of.

Wood.
From a tree.

At the begining of Genesis we remember another tree.

Genesis 3:17
Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of itAll the days of your life.

Adam disobeyed God’s command to not eat from the tree. The first sin. We call Original Sin.This sin is called original because it comes down to us through our origin, or descent, from Adam. They had a choice.

**Romans 5:12 **
Therefore as **through one man **sin entered into the world and through sin death, **and thus death has passed unto all men **because all have sinned.

The chief punishments of Adam which we inherit through original sin are: death, suffering, ignorance, and a strong inclination to sin.

**Wisdom 2:24 **
But, by the envy of the devil, death came into the world.

**Genesis 3:19 **
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth, out of which thou wast taken; for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return.

Because of Adam’s sin heaven’s doors were closed to us.God the Father promised us someone who would redeem us.He did not leave us.

**Genesis 3:15 **
I will put enmities between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed; he shall crush your head, and you shall lie in wait his heel.

Jesus the Christ bore all the sins of the world and sacrificed His life for us. He redeemed us.And God opened the doors to heaven for us.

1 Peter 2:24
24and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

Galatians 3:13
13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for** us**–for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”–

1 Corinthians 15:3 **
3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins **according to the Scriptures,

It had been written in the Old Testament that …

Deuteronomy 21:22
22"If a man has committed a sin worthy of death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree,

Well Jesus was carrying all our sins on His body.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Acts 10:39

39"We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross.

Through a tree came death, Adam’s sin. And through a tree came life, Jesus’ crucifixion.

That cross means more then you know. We were saved through His crucifixion not through His resurrection. As Catholics we remind ourselves by hanging a crucifix in our homes and churches to remind us how much God loves us.

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[fellowChristian]

I am saying that baptism does not take away original sin, only the blood of Christ can take away sin and He alone can forgive sin. The catholic church cannot save anyone,no more than the baptist church that I go to can save anyone. The catholic church seems to hold that tradition and the bible are on an equal basis. I disagree with this. Tradition is passed along by practise of what people did (subject to change), the bible is the word of God and does not change. I stand on the Word of God, the Bible, Ralph.

Acts 2:38-39 (King James Version)

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

For the remission or forgiveness of sins,all sins.

Acts 22:16 (King James Version)

16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Be baptized and wash away your sins.Enough said,but there is more.

**1 Peter 3:21 **(King James Version)

21The like figure whereunto even **baptism doth also now save us **(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Baptism is not for washing away dirt it does something! It saves you!

**Mark 16:16 **(King James Version)

16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The problem is not with baptism the problem is with authority. But I tell you that everytime you open the Word of God you except the authority of the church that Jesus built,The Catholic Church, for it was she through Sacred Tradition, that gave us the Gospel of the Lord.Thanks be to God! Can I get an Amen!

 

[Ralph_Macdonald]

Acts 2:38-39 (King James Version)

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

For the remission or forgiveness of sins,all sins.

Acts 22:16 (King James Version) I am afraid my friend that you missed a few important points: The word “repent” and “calling on the name of the Lord”.If you remove those words then you have “only” baptism. The bible says that those who belong to the body of Christ (those who are born again) are His church, and He will return for them at the rapture unless they die previous to that time. I am waiting for His return. Ralph

16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Be baptized and wash away your sins.Enough said,but there is more.

**1 Peter 3:21 **(King James Version)

21The like figure whereunto even **baptism doth also now save us **(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Baptism is not for washing away dirt it does something! It saves you!

**Mark 16:16 **(King James Version)

16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The problem is not with baptism the problem is with authority. But I tell you that everytime you open the Word of God you except the authority of the church that Jesus built,The Catholic Church, for it was she through Sacred Tradition, that gave us the Gospel of the Lord.Thanks be to God! Can I get an Amen!

 

[IrishJoe]

Adam disobeyed God’s command to not eat from the tree. The first sin. We call Original Sin.This sin is called original because it comes down to us through our origin, or descent, from Adam. They had a choice.

They may have had a choice but we do not. This is not just.

The chief punishments of Adam which we inherit through original sin are: death, suffering, ignorance, and a strong inclination to sin.

I disagree. There is no proof of this. It could just be an anthropological explination.

Jesus the Christ bore all the sins of the world and sacrificed His life for us. He redeemed us.And God opened the doors to heaven for us.

Possibly but if

“Jesus was carrying all our sins on His body.”

Then how does it account for people born after him what happens to people who cannot sin? What happens to babies that are aborted - they are not born so do not ‘inherit’ original sin yet have not been saved. The bible says ‘for all have sinned’ yet mary seems to make the exception and what about people who are mentally incapable of sinning?