Original sin

[KrazyKaiju]

Does anyone know any scriptural arguments/defenses for original sin? How about any non-scriptural arguments?

My mom (non-Catholic) persists that there is no such thing as original sin, mainly because of the complication of babies who die before baptism. She probably sees original sin as a scare tactic to fish in believers.

 

[AnneElliot]

I think first it is necessary to understand what Original Sin is/what the Church means by teaching such a thing. Namely, that Original Sin is not personal sin, but is a condition we are born with because of the Fall (we lack sanctifying grace). And the result of Original Sin is death and suffering, concupiscence, and the privation of sanctifying grace (remedied in Sacramental Baptism). If we were not born with Original Sin then we would not die or suffer, because those are consequences of Adam’s Sin (cf. Genesis 3:19).

Now, as to evidence for Original Sin:

Non-Scriptural evidence: look around.

Scriptural evidence:
Genesis 3 (whole chapter) describes the Event (the Fall) from which Original Sin comes.
Romans 5:12-19 “12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned. 13 For until the law sin was in the world; but sin was not imputed, when the law was not. 14 But death reigned from Adam unto Moses, even over them also who have not sinned after the similitude of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also the gift. For if by the offence of one, many died; much more the grace of God, and the gift, by the grace of one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many16 And not as it was by one sin, so also is the gift. For judgment indeed was by one unto condemnation; but grace is of many offences, unto justification. 17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned through one; much more they who receive abundance of grace, and of the gift, and of justice, shall reign in life through one, Jesus Christ. 18 Therefore, as by the offence of one, unto all men to condemnation; so also by the justice of one, unto all men to justification of life. 19 For as by the disobedience of one man, many were made sinners; so also by the obedience of one, many shall be made just.”
1 Corinthians 5:21-22 “21 For by a man came death, and by a man the resurrection of the dead. 22 And as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.”
Ephesians 2:1-5 “1 And you, when you were dead in your offences, and sins, 2 Wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of this air, of the spirit that now worketh on the children of unbelief: 3 In which also we all conversed in time past, in the desires of our flesh, fulfilling the will of the flesh and of our thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest: 4 But God, (who is rich in mercy,) for his exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, (by whose grace you are saved,)”

 

[KrazyKaiju]

I think first it is necessary to understand what Original Sin is/what the Church means by teaching such a thing. Namely, that Original Sin is not personal sin, but is a condition we are born with because of the Fall (we lack sanctifying grace). And the result of Original Sin is death and suffering, concupiscence, and the privation of sanctifying grace (remedied in Sacramental Baptism). If we were not born with Original Sin then we would not die or suffer, because those are consequences of Adam’s Sin (cf. Genesis 3:19).

Now, as to evidence for Original Sin:

Non-Scriptural evidence: look around.

Scriptural evidence:
Genesis 3 (whole chapter) describes the Event (the Fall) from which Original Sin comes.
Romans 5:12-19 “12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned. 13 For until the law sin was in the world; but sin was not imputed, when the law was not. 14 But death reigned from Adam unto Moses, even over them also who have not sinned after the similitude of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also the gift. For if by the offence of one, many died; much more the grace of God, and the gift, by the grace of one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many16 And not as it was by one sin, so also is the gift. For judgment indeed was by one unto condemnation; but grace is of many offences, unto justification. 17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned through one; much more they who receive abundance of grace, and of the gift, and of justice, shall reign in life through one, Jesus Christ. 18 Therefore, as by the offence of one, unto all men to condemnation; so also by the justice of one, unto all men to justification of life. 19 For as by the disobedience of one man, many were made sinners; so also by the obedience of one, many shall be made just.”
1 Corinthians 5:21-22 “21 For by a man came death, and by a man the resurrection of the dead. 22 And as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.”
Ephesians 2:1-5 “1 And you, when you were dead in your offences, and sins, 2 Wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of this air, of the spirit that now worketh on the children of unbelief: 3 In which also we all conversed in time past, in the desires of our flesh, fulfilling the will of the flesh and of our thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest: 4 But God, (who is rich in mercy,) for his exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, (by whose grace you are saved,)”

I guess I should also ask:

What is sacntifying grace? How does it relate to the Sacrament of Baptism? What is necessary about the Sacrament of Baptism?

I know some faiths don’t go through the traditional Catholic rituals. Some don’t seem to believe in the sacraments (though I’m not sure what “believe” really means in this case). Some - like Quakerism - associate Baptism with this “feeling”, and that scares me.

 

[AnneElliot]

What is sacntifying grace?

It is what makes us holy. Sanctifying grace is the supernatural gift of God in the soul (i.e., the state of grace) that puts the soul in right relationship with God (i.e., we are justified).

How does it relate to the Sacrament of Baptism?

We receive sanctifying grace at Baptism, which washes away Original Sin (and any actual sins if the person has reached the age of reason) and makes the person justified.

1 Corinthians 6:11 “… but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Spirit of our God.”

What is necessary about the Sacrament of Baptism?

Sanctifying grace.

And,
John 3:5 “Jesus answered; Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

I know some faiths don’t go through the traditional Catholic rituals. Some don’t seem to believe in the sacraments (though I’m not sure what “believe” really means in this case). Some - like Quakerism - associate Baptism with this “feeling”, and that scares me.

Baptism is not about feelings or demonstrations, but about the justification of the soul.

 

[Joe_5859]

The best evidence for Original Sin is the daily newspaper. The evidence of our fallen nature is (sadly) all around us.

You might try looking at the Catechism’s explanation of Original Sin (CCC 396-409). Check the footnotes for the scriptural citations.

If you’re mother is worried about the fate of unbaptized babies, perhaps this statement will set her mind at ease: The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptized

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I was on the jury for a murder trial some years back. The murderer was just plain mean. A woman on the jury was from one of the fundamentalist type churches. She commented, " He convinces me that there is Original Sin."

 

[Hesychios]

My mom (non-Catholic) persists that there is no such thing as original sin, mainly because of the complication of babies who die before baptism. She probably sees original sin as a scare tactic to fish in believers.

" …the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original** sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains."**
Council of Florence Session 6

This may not satisfy your mother, but it is the stated position of the Latin Catholic church.

 

[mardukm]

" …the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original** sin** alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains."
Council of Florence Session 6

This may not satisfy your mother, but it is the stated position of the Latin Catholic church.

This is true, but it should also be noted that the Council of Florence did not define the matter. The teachings that Florence wanted to actually dogmatize were prefaced with the clause, “We define…” If you read the surrounding text in Session six (dailycatholic.org/history/17ecume8.htm), you will find that the statement quoted by brother Hesychios above is not prefaced with the clause “we define…,” though other teachings in the same paragraph are.

Here is a quote from the original Catholic Encyclopedia (the standard text for many conservative and traditional Latin Catholics):
The New Testament contains no definite statement of a positive kind regarding the lot of those who die in original sin without being burdened with grievous personal guilt. But, by insisting on the absolute necessity of being “born again of water and the Holy Ghost” (John 3:5) for entry into the kingdom of Heaven (see BAPTISM, subtitle Necessity of Baptism), Christ clearly enough implies that men are born into this world in a state of sin, and St. Paul’s teaching to the same effect is quite explicit (Romans 5:12 sqq.). On the other hand, it is clear from Scripture and Catholic tradition that the means of regeneration provided for this life do not remain available after death, so that those dying unregenerate are eternally excluded from the supernatural happiness of the beatific vision (John 9:4, Luke 12:40, 16:19 sqq., 2 Corinthians 5:10; see also APOCATASTASIS). The question therefore arises as to what, in the absence of a clear positive revelation on the subject, we ought in conformity with Catholic principles to believe regarding the eternal lot of such persons. Now it may confidently be said that, as the result of centuries of speculation on the subject, we ought to believe that these souls enjoy and will eternally enjoy a state of perfect natural happiness; and this is what Catholics usually mean when they speak of the limbus infantium, the "children’s limbo."

Read the entire article here: newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm

Blessings

 

[Hesychios]

This is true, but it should also be noted that the Council of Florence did not define the matter. The teachings that Florence wanted to actually dogmatize were prefaced with the clause, “We define…” If you read the surrounding text in Session six (dailycatholic.org/history/17ecume8.htm), you will find that the statement quoted by brother Hesychios above is not prefaced with the clause “we define…,” though other teachings in the same paragraph are.

That doesn’t seem to make any sense, why mention it at all if it is not a definition?