Original sin:

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grannymh said:
A fuller meaning is this. (IV) God established him in His friendship.
Source: CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 355

Paragraph 355 refers to you and me as well as to the first human being. Please continue reading.
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Yes, I am familiar with this paragraph, but you have lost me as to what this has to do with the point I was making. My point is that God does not live apart from His children. All of creation belongs to Him. He is not a God who lives “far away”, but is “closer than our very breath”. We were discussing whether or not Adam and Eve lived in a perfect world prior to the fall. My contention is that they did as I have already explained.

I’m sure that I am just misunderstanding your comments. Maybe you could expand.

Thanks.
 
SteveVH said:
Yes, I am familiar with this paragraph, but you have lost me as to what this has to do with the point I was making. My point is that God does not live apart from His children. All of creation belongs to Him. He is not a God who lives “far away”, but is “closer than our very breath”. We were discussing whether or not Adam and Eve lived in a perfect world prior to the fall. My contention is that they did as I have already explained.

I’m sure that I am just misunderstanding your comments. Maybe you could expand.

Thanks.
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I was responding to your post 113. “Genesis provides evidence that God walked with Adam and Eve in the garden.”

Paragraph 355 actually affirms what you said about God being with Adam in the Garden. In addition, paragraph 355 and following goes into depth as to how God was with Adam in the Garden and subsequently how God is with us today.

It is because Adam and ourselves are created in the Image of God that we are able to know and love our Creator. We are called to share in God’s own life. Paragraph 376 refers to remaining in the divine intimacy. This is truly closer than our very breath.

Using the Catechism, I am not only affirming your statement that God walked with Adam and Eve in the Garden, I am expanding it to an understanding of our spiritual soul which is why we can share in God’s life.

It is not all that important to agree on the word perfect in regard to the Garden. Perhaps the reason that I am very conscious of the presence of Satan is that the Catechism paragraphs on the Fall of the Angels come before the section on Original Sin.

Thank you for asking for a clarification.

Blessings,
granny

Our first parent Adam was the apple of God’s eye.
(example of reality and figurative language)
 
grannymh said:
There was a real sin in that Adam scorned his Creator. Adam, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart, and abusing his freedom disobeyed God.
Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 385-409.

Some Christans say that the sinful act was eating an actual apple which had been forbidden. It is more likely that the eating of the organic apple symbolizes Adam’s refusal (disobedience) to live in free submission to God’s plan. In the long run, it really doesn’t matter, because the reality is that Adam sinned big time.

Blessings,
granny

Our first parent Adam was the apple of God’s eye.
(example of reality and figurative language)
Click to expand...
Hi granny, I agree with you. The apple is not the issue its what it symbolized. Not obeying God. And I agree Adam for sure sinned big time. Alot of People say its not fair that God made us pay for ths sin of Adam and Eve.

I personally believe it goes alot deeper then that. It wasn’t fair Jesus had to pay for our sins either, but People forget that part, don’t you agree?

But in my personal opinion, this is not Catholic teaching (at least not official that I know of) I think that the O.T. is more of a lesson for us all. And I think the the N.T is kind of what did we learn from the O.T. and from the sins of others.’

I think that when we die and go to the next world and see what it is like we will remember this world and what it was like, and thats why I think thats part of why the next world will be the perfect world. Simply because there will be no sin because we know first hand what that sin brought to us. Unhappiness. And I think that free will, will exist in the next world also, but the people who make it to the next world and are completely happy with God will never sin because they never want to suffer again, or be the blame for the suffering of others.

I personally believe that is what will make the next world so awesome, not only because you can look into the beautiful eyes of our Lord, (and could you imagine the feeling inside that would be, a lifetime would never be long enough) but you can also be with the ones you love, and you will know that there will never be separation again ever. And complete happiness is something that we have never known in this life. I believe that is why the people who have the most are the most empty because they have it all, and still cannot figure out what is missing. But if they only knew that complete happiness cannot be achieved in this world maybe they could learn true contentment.

And maybe the people who have the least are more happy because when you are without you pray and feel you are closer to God. I think its easier to relate to God when you are in pain, suffering, worrying, etc. because you know although he is always with us, you don;t seem to need him as much when things are going good, as you do when you are in some kind of trouble.

But I think what original sin is more of a lesson then a punishment. Its kind of like when you hear people ready to die, or get older they say if I could go back and do it over I would never change a thing. I don’t believe that for a minute. Although I understand if they did not make mistakes they would not be the same people, we wish we could all go back and change something. For some everything. BUt thats why I think the next world will also be great because Although the lesson from Adam and Eve was a tough one, it was well worth it.

Because in the next world you have all the wisdom, and you can actually re-write your own life, and get it right this time.
 
Diana, per your original post, you might look at this video of a talk by Fr. Robert Barron, one of Catholicism’s best preachers. It’s about “the fall.” He’s not using “original” when talking of sin, but it’s about original sin…

wordonfire.org/WOF-TV/WGN-Videos/OCT-17TH—Fr–Barron-on-The-Fall.aspx

There’s a plethora of other good talks, videos, blog entries on his website if you’re interested in a thinking Catholic’s perspective.
 
grannymh said:
I was responding to your post 113. “Genesis provides evidence that God walked with Adam and Eve in the garden.”

Paragraph 355 actually affirms what you said about God being with Adam in the Garden. In addition, paragraph 355 and following goes into depth as to how God was with Adam in the Garden and subsequently how God is with us today.

It is because Adam and ourselves are created in the Image of God that we are able to know and love our Creator. We are called to share in God’s own life. Paragraph 376 refers to remaining in the divine intimacy. This is truly closer than our very breath.

Using the Catechism, I am not only affirming your statement that God walked with Adam and Eve in the Garden, I am expanding it to an understanding of our spiritual soul which is why we can share in God’s life.

It is not all that important to agree on the word perfect in regard to the Garden. Perhaps the reason that I am very conscious of the presence of Satan is that the Catechism paragraphs on the Fall of the Angels come before the section on Original Sin.

Thank you for asking for a clarification.

Blessings,
granny

Our first parent Adam was the apple of God’s eye.
(example of reality and figurative language)
Click to expand...
Thank you grannymh. I see where you were coming from and wish more people would read the CCC. I never cease to be amazed at the wisdom and understanding contained in that book. I was just explaining to someone on another thread that Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium must all three be present in order to understand the revelation that has been handed down to us by the Apostles. The Catechism contains all three and, in my opinion, is one of the greatest compilations of our faith ever written.

God bless you.
 
The Catholic Catechism is the best source for our beliefs. And they concisely explain each concept that imparts life value and moral nurturance.
 
dianaiad said:
Thank you…

Everybody who has posted here so far has shown a degree of thought, and of knowledge, that is amazing to see, and I have enjoyed every post. I’m learning a lot!

I’d like to respond specifically to this post, though, as it illustrates one aspect of this topic that still eludes me.

It has been explained to me (not by anybody in HERE!) that “original sin” is the shared punishment for Adam and Eve’s choice in the garden. Because they sinned, WE are condemned to hell unless God chooses to rescue us from that fate. Our hellish fate, determined by the very fact of our birth, is their fault.

As I said, unless I missed something, nobody in here has said that.

It has also been explained to me that ‘original sin’ is that concupiscence…that propensity and desire to sin, that we inherit from our first parents because of their choices, a bit like an inheritable birth defect; Adam and Eve didn’t have this problem–then, by their choice to sin, developed it and passed it down to the rest of us. That seems to be more along the lines of what I am seeing in here.

OK…I can see that, and can even agree that human nature does like the ‘easy’ fix, or path, and that path is usually the indulgent, sinful one. However, that still raises the question, for me, of where we got that tendency. If our tendency to sin is the result of Adam and Eve’s choices, and is thus their fault, then what caused them to disobey? It seems to me that, while it is quite reasonable to claim that we inherited this problem from them, I get stuck with the problem of what happened to them.

There is a reason, after all, that they made the choices they did. If we blame our tendency to sin upon them, where do they go?
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Diana:

First I would like to thank you for being a gracious host on this thread. I had missed this this post and found some things that should be clarified
 
grannymh said:
There was a real sin in that Adam scorned his Creator. Adam, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart, and abusing his freedom disobeyed God.
Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 385-409.

Some Christans say that the sinful act was eating an actual apple which had been forbidden. It is more likely that the eating of the organic apple symbolizes Adam’s refusal (disobedience) to live in free submission to God’s plan. In the long run, it really doesn’t matter, because the reality is that Adam sinned big time.

Blessings,
granny

Our first parent Adam was the apple of God’s eye.
(example of reality and figurative language)
Click to expand...
Thanks Grannhymh.

Your friend
Sufjon
 
SteveVH said:
The original sin was pride and selfishness. They wanted to become like God. That was the temptation into which they fell. It was the sin of Lucifer as well, which is why he used it in the garden.
Click to expand...
Thanks SteveVH.

Your friend
Sufjon
 
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