Original Sin?

[DPMartin]

“Original sin”

Is it just, that all should suffer the consequence of another’s choice?

 

[Joe_5859]

“Original sin”

Is it just, that all should suffer the consequence of another’s choice?

In light of Adam and Eve’s unique place as the first parents of the entire human family, their sin has changed the human nature we are all born with.

If you are interested in how the Catholic Church articulates the teaching on Original Sin, I would recommend taking a look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church: CCC 385-421.

 

[Spencerian]

“Original sin”

Is it just, that all should suffer the consequence of another’s choice?

Hi.

Original sin is not a matter of the transgression of one individual. It’s a matter of a transgression of very special individuals. The transgression was not like anything we can do, like running a red light. The error that Adam and Eve did changed the nature of humanity itself, spirit and body. The error, the introduction of death into the human form, was not what God designed us to be. Adam and Eve knew this, too, but chose to defy God anyway.

As I tell my son, we can all make mistakes. But some mistakes have a greater consequence and can only be resolved with difficulty, if at all. As with Adam, God may forgive him, but the effects of his mistake became a part of us.

But God provided us a way to atone for Adam’s sin, and that’s the more important thing. God provided an atoning sacrifice as penalty for Adam’s act. But since there is nothing material we could sacrifice to God, not even sacrificing an ordinary man, God provided a sacrifice with both qualities of infinite worth and humanity: His Son, the Second Person.

Christ’s death caused a positive contradiction. You can kill a man, but if the man is God, you cannot die. Further, that sacrifice infused a new way for man to return to God through the power of grace. We cannot change what Adam made of us, here on Earth, but the actions and faith in our lives today may grant us the purity of body and spirit that God had offered Adam and Eve to start–a purity they rejected, but one that, in Christ, is offered again.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Original sin and its effects do not deprive us of anything we had a right to in the first place.

I read the following analogy somewhere. Imagine your great-grandfather owned the entire State of California, but lost it in a bet. It’s not your fault you didn’t inherit it, it’s his fault. But you still have no right to it.

 

[DPMartin]

In light of Adam and Eve’s unique place as the first parents of the entire human family, their sin has changed the human nature we are all born with.

If you are interested in how the Catholic Church articulates the teaching on Original Sin, I would recommend taking a look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church: CCC 385-421.

Joe
thanks for the reply

Being raised as Catholic, I am some what aware of the teaching, but I asked who ever would post:

“Is it just, that all should suffer the consequence of another’s choice?”

Which you did not attempt to consider if it be just, or not.

 

[dharmasister]

Original sin and its effects do not deprive us of anything we had a right to in the first place.

I read the following analogy somewhere. Imagine your great-grandfather owned the entire State of California, but lost it in a bet. It’s not your fault you didn’t inherit it, it’s his fault. But you still have no right to it.

This is probably the best way I have heard it put. It stinks that because of the actions of my great-grandfather I can no longer inherit the State of California.

Its not my fault that Adam and Eve lost the Kingdom of Heaven for us, but it has nothing to do with fairness.

 

[James1215]

I do not see how the view Joe expresses can be possible:

‘In light of Adam and Eve’s unique place as the first parents of the entire human family, their sin has changed the human nature we are all born with’

What happened to us, and how was human nature altered by human action? I think we have the same propensity to sin that they did, nothing that is necessarily worse.

And if our actions affect future human nature (challenges what human nature is), can we just as much improve human nature by our own actions? To refer to the loss of inheritance analogy, we might just as well work, earn, invest, etc!

 

[dharmasister]

Originally Posted by Aelred Mino Original sin and its effects do not deprive us of anything we had a right to in the first place.

And if you think about it, even if Adam and Eve hadn’t sinned and lost the Kingdom, what right would we have had to it anyway. Warren Buffet (the multi-billionaire Wall Street guy) isn’t leaving his children or grandchildren a dime. They did nothing to earn it. It was the result of his work. What the heck have any of us done to be entitled to inherit the Kingdom.

Just some random thoughts. Sorry if I’m not understanding what you’re getting at.

 

[DPMartin]

Hi.

Original sin is not a matter of the transgression of one individual. It’s a matter of a transgression of very special individuals. The transgression was not like anything we can do, like running a red light. The error that Adam and Eve did changed the nature of humanity itself, spirit and body. The error, the introduction of death into the human form, was not what God designed us to be. Adam and Eve knew this, too, but chose to defy God anyway.

As I tell my son, we can all make mistakes. But some mistakes have a greater consequence and can only be resolved with difficulty, if at all. As with Adam, God may forgive him, but the effects of his mistake became a part of us.

But God provided us a way to atone for Adam’s sin, and that’s the more important thing. God provided an atoning sacrifice as penalty for Adam’s act. But since there is nothing material we could sacrifice to God, not even sacrificing an ordinary man, God provided a sacrifice with both qualities of infinite worth and humanity: His Son, the Second Person.

Christ’s death caused a positive contradiction. You can kill a man, but if the man is God, you cannot die. Further, that sacrifice infused a new way for man to return to God through the power of grace. We cannot change what Adam made of us, here on Earth, but the actions and faith in our lives today may grant us the purity of body and spirit that God had offered Adam and Eve to start–a purity they rejected, but one that, in Christ, is offered again.

Spencerian
Thanks for the excellent response.

No dispute in what I believe your point is, but look at it from a none believer’s possible view.

Did anyone choose to be born into the world? Yes many have chosen to remain in the world for as lone as they can, but no one chooses to be born into the world, which is truly the choice of another.

And we know that God is Just, and Righteous. Then what is the righteousness in the case of Adam and Eve, that man, and sons of man should die, do to their choices?

 

[Robert_Sock]

In certain Jewish circles there is the belief that the Fall is really a blessing in disguise, and that our end-state will be greater than what it would have been if Adam and Eve did not sin.

 

[DPMartin]

Original sin and its effects do not deprive us of anything we had a right to in the first place.

I read the following analogy somewhere. Imagine your great-grandfather owned the entire State of California, but lost it in a bet. It’s not your fault you didn’t inherit it, it’s his fault. But you still have no right to it.

Aelred Minor

thanks for the reply

Nice point, but I am not sure that clarifies much of anything, in this case. It seems that it’s a shrug you shoulders kind of answer.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

“Original sin”

Is it just, that all should suffer the consequence of another’s choice?

Well, I personally don’t think that we should look at original sin this way (especially because I’m confused in how to answer ). If you were in the same situation as Adam and Eve, what makes you think you would do any different? Either way, we’ve all sinned (minus Jesus and Mary), so we all deserve hell. Help?

 

[DPMartin]

In certain Jewish circles there is the belief that the Fall is really a blessing in disguise, and that our end-state will be greater than what it would have been if Adam and Eve did not sin.

Robert Sock
thanks for the reply

There may be something to that, I believe that God has Chosen the integrity of His Word in His Presence. Over all other things especially mankind, and the life of mankind, which is His Righteousness. And it is through His Word given in His Presence that we are delivered to the same.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

I’m not sure if this is the right place for this, but it goes along with original sin.

I understand that we didn’t have our free will destroyed by original sin, but that" it was damaged. I’m having a hard time understanding how to view grace as being extrinsically efficacious if our free will was damaged. It seems if you hold this view that God gives prevenient grace that restores our free will, so our free will is as good as new. So in reality, original sin did nothing to our free will, as God just replaces it with his prevenient grace. With grace being intrinsically efficacious, it seems that the relationship between grace and free will is better, but then I have a hard time understanding predestination. But maybe I’m misunderstanding the relationship of free will, grace, and original sin. Help would be great. Thanks

 

[DPMartin]

Well, I personally don’t think that we should look at original sin this way (especially because I’m confused in how to answer ). If you were in the same situation as Adam and Eve, what makes you think you would do any different? Either way, we’ve all sinned (minus Jesus and Mary), so we all deserve hell. Help?

Swiss Guy

thanks for the reply

You might consider that it is a matter of choice. In the Garden what did they choose (Adam and Eve) what did God Choose which is from the beginning? Meaning already Chosen by the Father, who is in Heaven, before there ever was anything.

 

[davidv]

Spencerian
Thanks for the excellent response.

No dispute in what I believe your point is, but look at it from a none believer’s possible view.

Did anyone choose to be born into the world? Yes many have chosen to remain in the world for as lone as they can, but no one chooses to be born into the world, which is truly the choice of another.

And we know that God is Just, and Righteous. Then what is the righteousness in the case of Adam and Eve, that man, and sons of man should die, do to their choices?

I would say that the case that man must die in neither righteous nor unrighteous. It is simply the logical, and foretold, consequence of the unrighteous act of disobedience.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Swiss Guy

thanks for the reply

You are very welcome

You might consider that it is a matter of choice. In the Garden what did they choose (Adam and Eve) what did God Choose which is from the beginning? Meaning already Chosen by the Father, who is in Heaven, before there ever was anything.

Which gets you into the predestination controversy that I am struggling with now! Life is very annoying sometimes

 

[DPMartin]

I do not see how the view Joe expresses can be possible:

‘In light of Adam and Eve’s unique place as the first parents of the entire human family, their sin has changed the human nature we are all born with’

What happened to us, and how was human nature altered by human action? I think we have the same propensity to sin that they did, nothing that is necessarily worse.

And if our actions affect future human nature (challenges what human nature is), can we just as much improve human nature by our own actions? To refer to the loss of inheritance analogy, we might just as well work, earn, invest, etc!

I’d have to agree that this is an excellent point James, if you dead already then what’s the point of original sin? Or even the concern for it?

 

[DPMartin]

I would say that the case that man must die in neither righteous nor unrighteous. It is simply the logical, and foretold, consequence of the unrighteous act of disobedience.

David

thanks for the reply

Your matter of fact statement, is certainly legit, but is it just for all the sons and daughters of man to suffer the same consequence?

 

[davidv]

David

thanks for the reply

Your matter of fact statement, is certainly legit, but is it just for all the sons and daughters of man to suffer the same consequence?

No, but is that doesn’t prevent it from being the reality.

Lots of unjust things happen in the world that adversely affect the innocent, why single out this one?