Original Sin?

[DPMartin]

When you wrote “Original sin condemns man.” It is not clear what you mean as there can be multiple interpretations within the context you wrote it. Can you clarify?

With respect to pressing the issue of choice, I don’t think you answered the other posters question, namely, without choice can you love?

David

thanks for the replies

In the final analysis, is it your choice to be resurrected, or is it God’s Choice to resurrect you? By whose power and will, can that happen?

Surly God doesn’t value us more then His Word, but if God Gives His Word, because He values us, there is no doubt He will keep His Word. For the fulfillment of all things are according to His Word. Therefore the soul saved and the flesh excused from being, and replaced with the Body of Christ which is acceptable in the Presence of God.

As far as love, what does God tell us to love? And isn’t any instruction of God to man, God’s Choice for man to do? Just because one has received the capacity to do, doesn’t automatically make it correct, or there would be no need of instruction according to God’s Will.

If God never said to Love Him, would you? Could you? Or how could you be a participate of the fulfillment of His Word without the revelation of His Word? Which truly is His Choice to reveal to whomever He please.

 

[fhansen]

David

thanks for the replies

In the final analysis, is it your choice to be resurrected, or is it God’s Choice to resurrect you? By whose power and will, can that happen?

Surly God doesn’t value us more then His Word, but if God Gives His Word, because He values us, there is no doubt He will keep His Word. For the fulfillment of all things are according to His Word. Therefore the soul saved and the flesh excused from being, and replaced with the Body of Christ which is acceptable in the Presence of God.

As far as love, what does God tell us to love? And isn’t any instruction of God to man, God’s Choice for man to do? Just because one has received the capacity to do, doesn’t automatically make it correct, or there would be no need of instruction according to God’s Will.

If God never said to Love Him, would you? Could you? Or how could you be a participate of the fulfillment of His Word without the revelation of His Word? Which truly is His Choice to reveal to whomever He please.

These are a couple of quotes from St Augustine:

**He who created us without our help will not save us without our consent.

The God who gave you free will will not violate it to save you**

We’re absolutely lost without God-no hope of salvation, and yet He chooses to involve our wills in the process, IMO because as Adam freely fell, He wants us to freely rise, to the extent we’re able, and this is what our potential greatness and justification consists of-this is what God wants* for* us. To choose to love Him, to cooperate in receiving new hearts as He works to mold this love into us, is a crucial part of the plan of reconciliation/restoration.

 

[DPMartin]

These are a couple of quotes from St Augustine:

**He who created us without our help will not save us without our consent.

The God who gave you free will will not violate it to save you**

We’re absolutely lost without God-no hope of salvation, and yet He chooses to involve our wills in the process, IMO because as Adam freely fell, He wants us to freely rise, to the extent we’re able, and this is what our potential greatness and justification consists of-this is what God wants* for* us. To choose to love Him, to cooperate in receiving new hearts as He works to mold this love into us, is a crucial part of the plan of reconciliation/restoration.

fhansen

thanks for the reply
It is True that the “new man” is justified in reconciliation/restoration, and the “old man” is disregarded.

In today’s use of words like consent or cooperation it sounds like the Lord isn’t allowed to do with you as He pleases. Though I would hope, that’s not what you meant. It’s not that I disagree with what is said here. It is that what you say I believe is true in part, without consideration of the other that is true. God’s Choice.

The Lord teaches use not to take what is another’s, nor covet what is another’s, but would He take that is which your’s? Or covet what you claim to have, is your’s? What is the result of not having His Choice for you? You are required to agree, to His Choice for you, or you have nothing. God doesn’t covet your free will, nor will He take your free will, for the result of it is death. God doesn’t want what is your’s, He has what He wants which is the fulfillment of His Commandments in the flesh which has been done in Christ Jesus, to His Satisfaction.

Without agreeing to His Choice for you, what do you have? He certainly wouldn’t covet what is your’s then would He? Without your agreement of His Choice for you which is His Agreement given, that is His Choice, you have your free will to die with. He values His Choice for you, not your free will. His Choice for you is at His Right Hand. Where are you, with your free will?

His Choice for mankind is already fulfilled in Jesus Christ. And that is what God values. And since it is done, what could possibly be of value to God of your free will. Lets face it, God has pretty much said it, and done it, “there it is “ take it or leave it. It’s of value to you that you receive or be received into His Covenant fulfilled, that is reconciliation unto Him. He doesn’t need your cooperation to see to it that His Commandments are fulfilled in the flesh. It is done, on the Cross and in the resurrection of Christ.

The one without the power, doesn’t have peace to offer. It is the One who has the Power who offers the Peace. The only free will offering there is in the hand of the one without the power, is to submit, and forfeit free will, and that is only if it is the Choice of the One who has the Power to even offer Peace. The powerless have no say in the agreement, only requests in the agreement in accordance to the Judgement of the One who has the Power to fulfill the Agreement, that the agreement is fulfilled. Didn’t Jesus say, ask of the Father, and He will do it? (Not a quote)

Everything which we love and trust about ourselves, or in the world can deceive us. Everything that we hate about ourselves, or in the world, is the hate (darkness) in us. But in the fulfillment of Jesus Christ in us, is everything to love, and trust.

 

[fhansen]

thanks for the reply
It is True that the “new man” is justified in reconciliation/restoration, and the “old man” is disregarded.

The “old man” is intended to be made new. This is the meaning of the New Covenant promises in, for example, Jer 31, God intending to write His laws “on our hearts and in our minds.”

In today’s use of words like consent or cooperation it sounds like the Lord isn’t allowed to do with you as He pleases. Though I would hope, that’s not what you meant. It’s not that I disagree with what is said here. It is that what you say I believe is true in part, without consideration of the other that is true. God’s Choice.

Like I said, we can achieve nothing without God. But that doesn’t mean He doesn’t use us to accomplish His ends, for His purposes. And He desires all to be saved, BTW. But all aren’t, from what we understand. In the Lord’s prayer we pray that God’s will be done on earth as it is in heaven. But is it? Of course not-not yet, anyway. Just as Adam & Eve had the choice, so do we, because God has reconciled Himself with man.

The Lord teaches use not to take what is another’s, nor covet what is another’s, but would He take that is which your’s? Or covet what you claim to have, is your’s? What is the result of not having His Choice for you? You are required to agree, to His Choice for you, or you have nothing. God doesn’t covet your free will, nor will He take your free will, for the result of it is death. God doesn’t want what is your’s, He has what He wants which is the fulfillment of His Commandments in the flesh which has been done in Christ Jesus, to His Satisfaction.

God doesn’t need us at all-so He doesn’t need us to be saved, either. It’s His will that counts, and He happens to desire beings whose will is aligned with His, IOW who have come to see the wisdom behind His will, and like the Prodigal, have chose to come home. Do you think His Laws for us were an exercise in futility-that He gave man laws He never desired nor expected him to fulfill-and then whimsically blamed man anyway for not fulfilling them-then forgave him at some later date for no apparent reason? His whole purpose has been to restore man to the heights from which he fell-or to even higher heights yet, perhaps, making him capable of “seeing” Him again in the process by helping in the area of our wills, without coercion.

His Choice for mankind is already fulfilled in Jesus Christ. And that is what God values. And since it is done, what could possibly be of value to God of your free will. Lets face it, God has pretty much said it, and done it, “there it is “ take it or leave it.

Yes, we must take it. We must choose good over evil, life over death, God over no God. We must turn back to Him-He drawing us, but ourselves cooperating-not resisting.

Everything which we love and trust about ourselves, or in the world can deceive us. Everything that we hate about ourselves, or in the world, is the hate (darkness) in us. But in the fulfillment of Jesus Christ in us, is everything to love, and trust.

Well, yes, all peace, all love, all happiness, all goodness, comes from Him. But we’re part of that goodness, each made in His image, each of us an expression of Him, although a tainted, compromised expression in our fallen state. Not everything about us is hateful-this would be a misunderstanding of fallen human nature.

This argument has been pretty much hashed out before, most notably in the controversy with Pelagianism…You’re right to emphasize God’s sovereignty and grace but at the same time, it’s absolutely pointless to deny all responsibility of man for turning to God, even if our part is very small-or else we’d never have reason to admonish another even to have faith in Him, for one thing.

 

[DPMartin]

The “old man” is intended to be made new. This is the meaning of the New Covenant promises in, for example, Jer 31, God intending to write His laws “on our hearts and in our minds.”

Like I said, we can achieve nothing without God. But that doesn’t mean He doesn’t use us to accomplish His ends, for His purposes. And He desires all to be saved, BTW. But all aren’t, from what we understand. In the Lord’s prayer we pray that God’s will be done on earth as it is in heaven. But is it? Of course not-not yet, anyway. Just as Adam & Eve had the choice, so do we, because God has reconciled Himself with man.

God doesn’t need us at all-so He doesn’t need us to be saved, either. It’s His will that counts, and He happens to desire beings whose will is aligned with His, IOW who have come to see the wisdom behind His will, and like the Prodigal, have chose to come home. Do you think His Laws for us were an exercise in futility-that He gave man laws He never desired nor expected him to fulfill-and then whimsically blamed man anyway for not fulfilling them-then forgave him at some later date for no apparent reason? His whole purpose has been to restore man to the heights from which he fell-or to even higher heights yet, perhaps, making him capable of “seeing” Him again in the process by helping in the area of our wills, without coercion.

Yes, we must take it. We must choose good over evil, life over death, God over no God. We must turn back to Him-He drawing us, but ourselves cooperating-not resisting.

Well, yes, all peace, all love, all happiness, all goodness, comes from Him. But we’re part of that goodness, each made in His image, each of us an expression of Him, although a tainted, compromised expression in our fallen state. Not everything about us is hateful-this would be a misunderstanding of fallen human nature.

This argument has been pretty much hashed out before, most notably in the controversy with Pelagianism…You’re right to emphasize God’s sovereignty and grace but at the same time, it’s absolutely pointless to deny all responsibility of man for turning to God, even if our part is very small-or else we’d never have reason to admonish another even to have faith in Him, for one thing.

thanks for the reply

If you are fallen, then you are not restored to upright. The old man is not made new. New wine is not placed in old bottles. The old man is replaced with the new. New wine in new bottles.

All living things are guilty of being what they are made of. A swan is guilty of being a swan, a bear a bear, and a wolf a wolf. We are all guilty of being what we are made of, but God is who He is, and the breath of His Life be in us. That we may hear the Truth of God and see the Truth of God. Man is the only thing that God made of earth and spoke directly to, expecting to be heard, and said to “behold”. See in Truth which is His Word from on High.

It is interesting that you mention the Law. You are correct in what God has said is not in vain and stands forever. Consider this, is it possible that the Lord our God speaks from where He is, to us who dwell in the earth in terms that we can understand? For example:

Lev:19:14: Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.

Now in earthly terms, those who physically can’t hear or see. Or is this said from the view on High since it is the Lord God speaking? As in those who don’t hear the Truth of God and see the Truth of God.

In the prodical son, note that his father did not care what the prodical son did or did not do, all he cared about was that his son was restored to unto himself. It was the prodical son’s brother that had issues.

Life is not about pain management. Jesus didn’t come to help in the management of the pain of death. He came to remove that which causes death to mankind.

Again thanks

 

[davidv]

David

thanks for the replies

In the final analysis, is it your choice to be resurrected, or is it God’s Choice to resurrect you? By whose power and will, can that happen?

Surly God doesn’t value us more then His Word, but if God Gives His Word, because He values us, there is no doubt He will keep His Word. For the fulfillment of all things are according to His Word. Therefore the soul saved and the flesh excused from being, and replaced with the Body of Christ which is acceptable in the Presence of God.

As far as love, what does God tell us to love? And isn’t any instruction of God to man, God’s Choice for man to do? Just because one has received the capacity to do, doesn’t automatically make it correct, or there would be no need of instruction according to God’s Will.

If God never said to Love Him, would you? Could you? Or how could you be a participate of the fulfillment of His Word without the revelation of His Word? Which truly is His Choice to reveal to whomever He please.

I have no idea how this response addressed the questions in my post that you replied to. Can you explain?

 

[DPMartin]

I have no idea how this response addressed the questions in my post that you replied to. Can you explain?

David

Not sure that this would in any wise explain:

Deut:10:14: Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD’s thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.
15: Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.
16: Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

 

[fhansen]

16: Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

This is an admonition for us to do our part-to* cooperate*.

 

[DPMartin]

This is an admonition for us to do our part-to* cooperate*.

fhansen
thanks for the reply

Not sure if admonition would be appropriate. Authoritative counsel, true, but an instruction that gives Life to the living, in order to live according to the One who gives Life.
Instruction to do that is of the Lord God is to live, that corrects you from that which is not instructions to live, and if you read (Lev:19) it’s an instruction that Jesus fulfilled in the flesh.

The correct man stands corrected in the Lord.

Prov:6:23: For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life: