"Original Sin"

[M31]

Hi guys,

I’m aware of the concept called “Original Sin”, believed by the Catholic Church and other Protestants.

It is my understanding that it is basically when Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden, correct?

If that’s the case, I’m having a hard time accepting that - not because I’m agnostic - so could you please explain it in a more logical sense so that I can maybe accept it better?

I’m guessing that you might say the world suffers because of it, no?

 

[Little_One0307]

I would really recommend you looking at what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say about Orginal Sin.

It is found in paragraphs 396-412.

The CCC defines it as:

The sin by which the first human beings disobeyed the commandment of God, choosing to follow their own will rather than God’s will. As a consequence they lost the grace of orginal holiness, and became subject to the law of death; sin became universally present in the world. Besides the personal sin of Adam and Eve, orginal sin describes the fallen state which affects every person born into the world, and from which Christ, the “new Adam” came to redeem us.

Yes IN a sense the world does suffer from this.

God bless.

 

[adrift]

Hi guys,

I’m aware of the concept called “Original Sin”, believed by the Catholic Church and other Protestants.

It is my understanding that it is basically when Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden, correct?

If that’s the case, I’m having a hard time accepting that - not because I’m agnostic - so could you please explain it in a more logical sense so that I can maybe accept it better?

I’m guessing that you might say the world suffers because of it, no?

Would you explain your objection? I don’t understand why you object. Original sin refers to the first sin that was committed. The sin was one of disobedience to God. I am confused by your question.

 

[M31]

Well, I don’t own the Catechism…an agnostic cant do that yet

So if the whole world suffers, that means all animals and tiny organisms do as well? If so, animals and the like should NOT have to suffer under human “stupidity”.

And if it’s because man “rules” over all on Earth, that is quite sad.

I would really recommend you looking at what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say about Orginal Sin.

It is found in paragraphs 396-412.

The CCC defines it as:

Yes IN a sense the world does suffer from this.

God bless.

 

[beth40n2]

You can read the Catechism of the Catholic Church online. Here is the section on “The Fall”. scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm

Here is a link to the complete Catechism online. Just click on the lick to each section.
christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/ccc.html

 

[CatholicTrekkie]

Nice to meet you again M31! Glad to see you are asking good questions!

Well, I don’t own the Catechism…an agnostic cant do that yet

So if the whole world suffers, that means all animals and tiny organisms do as well? If so, animals and the like should NOT have to suffer under human “stupidity”.

And if it’s because man “rules” over all on Earth, that is quite sad.

Of course you can have a Catechism! It’s not some super-secret book that only Catholics are allowed to read. It’s primary purpose is to educate anyone wondering about Catholic teachings.

Animals and tiny organisms, because they do not have souls (At least, according to Catholic teaching), do not suffer, at least not in the same way that humans do. Suffering is a deep, spiritual pain that lingers and is a result of Original Sin. Animals, because they do not contain immortal souls, cannot suffer the same way that humans do (that’s not to say that they don’t suffer at all, just not to the extent that humans do).

Original Sin refers to the first act of disobedience of God’s will by humans. Before the Fall (when the Original Sin occurred), humans were in a state of total grace with God. This meant that we weren’t subject to death (not physical death, but spiritual death. Before the Fall, it can be said that all people went to heaven, because no one had disobeyed God). After the first sin was committed, humans Fell from God’s grace and were subject to death (in this case, the chance to go to hell). However, through Jesus Christ’s suffering, death, and Resurrection, the gates of Heaven were opened to humanity once again (retroactively, meaning, Christ’s sacrifice on the cross also applied to those that came before Christ).

 

[cemiller]

It is my understanding that it was the introduction of human sin that was the actual source and cause of the disharmony of the earth and the introduction of death and suffering in the world. My disobeying the only command that God gave them they disturbed the way things were meant to be. So God didn’t really punish them; they caused a deviation from God’s original plan, brought sin to life, and with the tight bond with God gone the process of decay. I’m not 100% sure of all of that, but I believe it is right. Maybe others will verify or refute it.

 

[M31]

Hmmmmmm…

Okay, so when we talk about suffering for humans, that must mean:

•Sickness, diseasees, etc.
•Starvation, thirst (yes, no hope either)
•Human limitation
•The ability to hate, murder, fight, etc.
•The world has to work in order to survive,
•Famines
•Poverty
•Natural disasters -tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis,etc.
•Manmade objects that can break-down (cars, planes,etc)…and can cause damage!
•Confusion
•Extreme temperature in weather (-30 and you’ve got frost bite or 123 degrees F and you’re toasted and with heat stroke!)
•Bills to pay (what if you cant afford them because you dont have a job)
•Having a frail body that can end your life depending on what happend to it (if, we weren’t in these bodies, we wouldn’t worry about death!)
•Death, of course
•And much more…

So if my above is correct about suffering due to "Original Sin, and if Adam and Eve OBEYED God, we wouldn’t have to suffer the above, correct?

 

[CatholicTrekkie]

Hmmmmmm…

Okay, so when we talk about suffering for humans, that must mean:

•Sickness, diseasees, etc.
•Starvation, thirst (yes, no hope either)
•Human limitation
•The ability to hate, murder, fight, etc.
•The world has to work in order to survive,
•Famines
•Poverty
•Natural disasters -tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis,etc.
•Manmade objects that can break-down (cars, planes,etc)…and can cause damage!
•Confusion
•Extreme temperature in weather (-30 and you’ve got frost bite or 123 degrees F and you’re toasted and with heat stroke!)
•Bills to pay (what if you cant afford them because you dont have a job)
•Having a frail body that can end your life depending on what happend to it (if, we weren’t in these bodies, we wouldn’t worry about death!)
•Death, of course
•And much more…

So if my above is correct about suffering due to "Original Sin, and if Adam and Eve OBEYED God, we wouldn’t have to suffer the above, correct?

Yes, for the most part. We would still feel pain, but we wouldn’t suffer (Yes, there is a difference). We would still experience the above, but we wouldn’t suffer because of those pains or imperfections.

 

[M31]

Yes, for the most part. We would still feel pain, but we wouldn’t suffer (Yes, there is a difference). We would still experience the above, but we wouldn’t suffer because of those pains or imperfections.

Okay…soooo…

So when Adam and Eve disobeyed, they must’ve really ticked off God enough to put suffering in the life of humanity, right?

I mean, did God go too far with losing his temper or something?

It’s like this: kids disobey their parents every so often and yes, they do get punished and suffer temporarily but at least normal decent parents get over it and forgive the child, as long as the child wont do it again.

In the Garden of Eden case, Adam and Eve disobeyed God…and God doesn’t act like a decent “parent” who punishes temporarily without too much suffering…instead, he seems to act with hostility and unforgivness and puts seemingly torture on women to give excruciating pain in childbirth. Isn’t that going a little too far??

Instead, wouldn’t a decent, loving and forgiving God act in a more justly, civilized way instead of condemning the whole entire human race forever on Earth as long as they live?

Seriously? People die of starvation just because Adam and Eve disobeyed God and God pretty much “overcondemned” the planet??

Yes, that would be ONE objection from me.

 

[Heuchler]

The main point is that at one point humans sinned. Through this we have gained a sinful nature and are prone to sin. Now some people think that if we hadn’t sinned we would have all lived for hundreds of years and have experienced little or no pain. Others (like myself) believe that we would have lived similar lives with the same hungers and a similar lifespan. The only difference would be that our world would be free of sin and all the murder and evil and hatred in this world would be gone. We would be more charitable and loving and more importantly we’d be happy.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Okay…soooo…

So when Adam and Eve disobeyed, they must’ve really ticked off God enough to put suffering in the life of humanity, right?

I mean, did God go too far with losing his temper or something?

It’s like this: kids disobey their parents every so often and yes, they do get punished and suffer temporarily but at least normal decent parents get over it and forgive the child, as long as the child wont do it again.

That analogy may a bit flawed. It’s not so much that it’s a punishment (though there is that too) as a consequence. If I cut off my hand, then I no longer have a hand. If I, as the first human, go into my genetic code and alter it so that it has the information for an arm ending in a stump, then none of my children will have hands.

Now, God could snap His fingers and put our hands back. But He created us as free creatures, in His own likeness, and chooses to respect our choices. He has, however, made a way for us to get our hands back and, in the process, end up even better off than we were before we chopped em off.

Seriously? People die of starvation just because Adam and Eve disobeyed God and God pretty much “overcondemned” the planet??

Yes, that would be ONE objection from me.

I think you may be considering God as a sort of large human. Earthly suffering can be terrible, but considering the above argument that it is a consequence of human freedom more than God’s anger, and that God has provided a gateway into an eternity of perfect bliss, simply allowing suffering to happen loses some of its harshness.

A book that I haven’t managed to read yet, but which has been recommended to me on the subject: amazon.com/Problem-Pain-C-S-Lewis/dp/0060652969. (Apologies for linking to a store, but it seemed the best way to point out which I meant.)

 

[CatholicTrekkie]

Okay…soooo…

So when Adam and Eve disobeyed, they must’ve really ticked off God enough to put suffering in the life of humanity, right?

I mean, did God go too far with losing his temper or something?

It’s like this: kids disobey their parents every so often and yes, they do get punished and suffer temporarily but at least normal decent parents get over it and forgive the child, as long as the child wont do it again.

In the Garden of Eden case, Adam and Eve disobeyed God…and God doesn’t act like a decent “parent” who punishes temporarily without too much suffering…instead, he seems to act with hostility and unforgivness and puts seemingly torture on women to give excruciating pain in childbirth. Isn’t that going a little too far??

Instead, wouldn’t a decent, loving and forgiving God act in a more justly, civilized way instead of condemning the whole entire human race forever on Earth as long as they live?

Seriously? People die of starvation just because Adam and Eve disobeyed God and God pretty much “overcondemned” the planet??

Yes, that would be an objection from me.

You raise alot of points (and they’re all very good points), It’s just that it’s sometimes it’s difficult to understand what your main objection is. I’ll try my best, but for future reference, it might help my and others understanding more if you were shorter and clearer with your objections.

From what I gather from your statement, you find it objectionable that God seemingly placed alot of suffering on humanity without the possibility of removing said suffering. Furthermore, you find it objectionable that the disobedience of Adam and Eve “overcondemned” the planet. I’ll try and explain everything as best as I can according to Catholic teaching.

When God first created the universe, the universe was all-good, because “God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.” Genesis 1: 31 (NASB). So, when God first created man, man was all-good. He had no sin on him and he was in full grace with God (he was completely holy and good, and was, one could say, instantly sent to heaven because he had not sinned). Then, man chose, through his God-given free will, to disobey God. Because God is the standard of all Goodness, and man choose to disobey God’s Divine Goodness, he allowed sin and suffering to enter the world (how sin is linked to suffering I’ll explain in a bit). Thus, it was not God that placed suffering on humans, it was humans themselves who chose to sin, and thus to allow suffering into the world.

Evil has two different forms. There is moral evil and physical evil. Moral evil is sin. Physical evil is suffering. How are the two connected?

1. 
   *]The human person is a unity of soul and body (this is a concept known as psychosomatic unity).
   *]If we grant this principle, it makes sense that if the soul becomes alienated from God (through sin), the body will become alienated too.
   *]So, if the human body is a unity of soul and body, and the soul becomes damaged through moral evil (sin), then this will affect the body through the manifestation of physical evil (suffering).
   
   To give a visual, imagine three iron rings suspended from a magnet. The magnet symbolizes God; the first ring, the soul; the middle ring, the body; the bottom ring, nature. As long as the soul stays in touch with God, the magnetic “life” keeps flowing through the whole chain, from divine life to soul life, body life and nature life. The three rings are harmonized and united. But when the soul freely declares its independence from God, when the first iron ring separates from the magnet, the inevitable consequence is that the whole chain of rings is demagnetized and falls apart. When the soul is separated from God, the body is separated from the soul - that is, it dies - and also from nature - that is, it suffers. Thus, in this way, both suffering and sin are traced to man, not God.
   
   This is a short quotation and paraphrase from “The Problem of Evil” chapter of the book Handbook of Catholic Apologetics by Peter Kreeft and Robert Tacelli (I highly recommend this book as it explains (albeit very briefly) many Catholic teachings in a logical and rational manner).
   
   You also stated that you found it objectionable that God did not offer a way out of this sin and suffering. The answer to that is that he did: through His son, Jesus Christ. He sent His only Begotten Son to earth to show us the way to His Father (a way that is free of sin, and thus suffering), and through his own suffering, death, and Resurrection, we have been redeemed with God, and are able to live with Him in Heaven.

 

[grannymh]

Well, I don’t own the Catechism…an agnostic cant do that yet

I won’t tell a soul – here’s a link to the* Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition*. scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

 

[M31]

So does that mean if humans hadn’t sinned, there would be NO tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc? No hot lava coming out of volcanoes, killing innocent people in its path? Is that what you’re saying?

Why create a beautiful planet and let “sinful” humans populate? God hates sin, right? Why create humanity with sin?

That’s why when God says “be fruitful and multiply” he must’ve meant “multiply the sins”. No? He KNOWS people are going to sin, each and every human!

I’m not trying to be sarcastic…I’m making a point.

If God didn’t like what humans do, he should’ve got rid of them totally (Noah should’ve drowned in the flood!) and instead destroyed the Earth. Move on, is what they say, lol

 

[CatholicTrekkie]

So does that mean if humans hadn’t sinned, there would be NO tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc? No hot lava coming out of volcanoes, killing innocent people in its path? Is that what you’re saying?

No, that is not what I’m saying at all. If human’s hadn’t sinned, these things would still happen, we just wouldn’t suffer because of them.

Why create a beautiful planet and let “sinful” humans populate? God hates sin, right? Why create humanity with sin?

God did not create humanity with sin, humans freely brought it into the world.

That’s why when God says “be fruitful and multiply” he must’ve meant “multiply the sins”. No? He KNOWS people are going to sin, each and every human!

I’m not trying to be sarcastic…I’m making a point.

If God didn’t like what humans do, he should’ve got rid of them totally (Noah should’ve drowned in the flood!) and instead destroyed the Earth. Move on, is what they say, lol

God did not destroy everyone after they sinned because His love appeals to freedom. He loves us enough to let us sin freely instead of not having free will and essentially going around like robots, programmed to only be good and never to do evil.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Why create a beautiful planet and let “sinful” humans populate? God hates sin, right? Why create humanity with sin?

He didn’t. He created humans with will. Humans created their own sin, though not sin itself. Sin is simply opposition to good, to God. It is inherent in will.

That’s why when God says “be fruitful and multiply” he must’ve meant “multiply the sins”. No? He KNOWS people are going to sin, each and every human!

Would knowing that there is a chance that your child could end up as a serial killer stop you from having children? That’s a slim chance, and not the best analogy, but parents have and love children despite knowing what they will do. He knows we will sin, but loves us anyway.

If God didn’t like what humans do, he should’ve got rid of them totally (Noah should’ve drowned in the flood!) and instead destroyed the Earth. Move on, is what they say, lol

It’d be hard to argue against Him if He chose to do so. But God is love, and loves us, and so allows us to persist on the off chance we’ll return to Him. You have seen a picture of the Sacred Heart, right? It’s circled in thorns. The sin and suffering of humans is not enjoyed by God, but God loves us despite our weaknesses.

There are 4 main things here:

• We are free. Freedom is real, and includes the ability to go against God.
• God didn’t make our freedom to be a joke. He will not simply overturn our decisions.
• God enables us to do what is right and provides a path for us to recover from the consequences of our actions, out of love and despite the fact that He by no means has any responsibility to do so
• God would be justified in ending the universe, but because He loves us, He does not.

There’s two aspects that interplay: justice/respect for the natural consequences of our free choices and mercy/ability for us to recover from said consequences. Both are required to understand what is going on.

 

[M31]

That analogy may a bit flawed. It’s not so much that it’s a punishment (though there is that too) as a consequence. If I cut off my hand, then I no longer have a hand. If I, as the first human, go into my genetic code and alter it so that it has the information for an arm ending in a stump, then none of my children will have hands.

It always seems like non-believer’s analogies are always flawed I sure hope that’s not “unbeliever predjudice”

Now, God could snap His fingers and put our hands back. But He created us as free creatures, in His own likeness, and chooses to respect our choices. He has, however, made a way for us to get our hands back and, in the process, end up even better off than we were before we chopped em off.

But God likes to do things the hard way! But that’s easy for him to think that because he can do anything

think you may be considering God as a sort of large human. Earthly suffering can be terrible, but considering the above argument that it is a consequence of human freedom more than God’s anger, and that God has provided a gateway into an eternity of perfect bliss, simply allowing suffering to happen loses some of its harshness.

I could think of God as harsh, yes. Or, maybe he doesn’t exist at all and humanity made him up, that’s possible too.

Then humanity is flawed. So giving humanity free will is a dangerous thing to do because it causes humanity to be flawed (just like you said my analogy was flawed, lol) and destructive.

A book that I haven’t managed to read yet, but which has been recommended to me on the subject: amazon.com/Problem-Pain-C-S-Lewis/dp/0060652969. (Apologies for linking to a store, but it seemed the best way to point out which I meant.)

Thanks, I might check it out.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

It always seems like non-believer’s analogies are always flawed I sure hope that’s not “unbeliever predjudice”

Well yeah. All analogies are flawed when we talk about God, because He’s not like anything else. We just have to try to find the ones that are least flawed in whatever area we’re discussing.

Then humanity is flawed. So giving humanity free will is a dangerous thing to do because it causes humanity to be flawed (just like you said my analogy was flawed, lol) and destructive.

Humanity is flawed now, but we introduced that into ourselves through our free will. And yes, free will is a dangerous for us to have (well, dangerous to us anyway), but it is what makes us actual beings instead of little puppets.

 

[M31]

So why would there be a serpent with Adam and Eve in the first place? To test them? Why a serpent and not a butterfly?

Also, why put the tree in there with them in the first place? Couldn’t God have put that tree somewhere else or not let it exist at all?

I mean, to me that seems kind of dumb to put something there and you’re not suppose to touch or eat or whatever. It would make sense putting it elsewhere. And why put it with creatures that have free will?