Original Sin

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The recognition of the dependent relationship between the creature and Creator has to be agreed to or denied by Adam who did have the capability of free choice. This relationship is described by these phrases in CCC 398 – “the requirements of his creaturely status”, and “constituted in a state of holiness”, and “destined to be fully ‘divinized’ by God in glory”.

By reading CCC 397, one finds that the “first choice” was that Adam freely chose to let his trust in his Creator die in his heart. Even at that point, he could have returned trust to his heart. Instead, his free choice was to abuse his freedom by his action of disobeying God’s command. This disobedient act means that he chose his own desires and thus he preferred himself to God and by that very act Adam scorned His Creator and shattered his relationship with God. Yet, God did not abandon Adam.
(Source: the Protoevangelium, CCC 410)
Alright, I think it could be said that he *chose *to not recognize his dependency on God, and this is paralleled in us whenever we also deny or ignore the truth in order to gain some perceived benefit or another. But I still wonder how any being created as great as Adam was could do such a foolish and unreasonable thing as to deny Gods’ authority, effectively denying His godhood.

But was it really, totally, a choice? Could we cut Adam some slack by recognizing that, while he was created good, and better yet, possessed higher gifts that we don’t have, he still lacked one thing, he was’t God, and therefore lacked the perfection of God including God’s perfect wisdom. Maybe wrong choices weren’t so easily avoided; maybe only God is perfect enough for that-and man’s lesson to be learned in this world that he’s been exiled into is of his utter dependency on God. Once that lesson is truly learned, by Adam or his descendants, man won’t fall again- he’ll trust in God rather than himself or anyone else after all.
 
Hi, Fhansen,

I think there are a lot of people who view Adam and his sin in a rather kindly light. In fact, - during the Easter Vigil, it is called, ‘o happy fault o necessry sin to merit such a Redemer’!

And, while it may be difficult to envision an apple tree in the middle of hte Garden that had a talking snake coiled around a banch, just to height of Eve’s ear - give it a try. And, if you still have trouble, do what I do… examine your conscience and see just what it was that was substituted for the ‘apple’. Sin is us turning our backs on God and wanting to be God - and these activities are unrealistic because they are based on a lie.

Trying to find a way to at least partially excuse Adam is OK as far as it goes… but, the trouble is, it just doesn’t go far enough. And, there is the temptation that if we are able to excuse Adam - then surely the sins that we commit would never add up to the Original Sin.

God bless
Alright, I think it could be said that he *chose *to not recognize his dependency on God, and this is paralleled in us whenever we also deny or ignore the truth in order to gain some perceived benefit or another. But I still wonder how any being created as great as Adam was could do such a foolish and unreasonable thing as to deny Gods’ authority, effectively denying His godhood.

But was it really, totally, a choice? Could we cut Adam some slack by recognizing that, while he was created good, and better yet, possessed higher gifts that we don’t have, he still lacked one thing, he was’t God, and therefore lacked the perfection of God including God’s perfect wisdom. Maybe wrong choices weren’t so easily avoided; maybe only God is perfect enough for that-and man’s lesson to be learned in this world that he’s been exiled into is of his utter dependency on God. Once that lesson is truly learned, by Adam or his descendants, man won’t fall again- he’ll trust in God rather than himself or anyone else after all.
 
Hi, Fhansen,

I think there are a lot of people who view Adam and his sin in a rather kindly light. In fact, - during the Easter Vigil, it is called, ‘o happy fault o necessry sin to merit such a Redemer’!

And, while it may be difficult to envision an apple tree in the middle of hte Garden that had a talking snake coiled around a banch, just to height of Eve’s ear - give it a try. And, if you still have trouble, do what I do… examine your conscience and see just what it was that was substituted for the ‘apple’. Sin is us turning our backs on God and wanting to be God - and these activities are unrealistic because they are based on a lie.

Trying to find a way to at least partially excuse Adam is OK as far as it goes… but, the trouble is, it just doesn’t go far enough. And, there is the temptation that if we are able to excuse Adam - then surely the sins that we commit would never add up to the Original Sin.

God bless
God blamed Adam-& yet God knew the Blessed Fault would occur before it was committed-and planned for it in fact to bring a greater good out of the evil He knew would occur. So, while I don’t think Adam should be cavalierly excused, I do wonder if the fault wasn’t virtually inevitable in any case; God’s awesome plan of salvation already in place before man had even become lost. This all ties in with His creating the universe in a “state of journeying” as per the CCC:

**302 Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created “in a state of journeying” (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it. We call “divine providence” the dispositions by which God guides his creation toward this perfection:
By his providence God protects and governs all things which he has made, “reaching mightily from one end of the earth to the other, and ordering all things well”. For “all are open and laid bare to his eyes”, even those things which are yet to come into existence through the free action of creatures.

310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better. But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.**

I think the consequences of the Fall should be looked upon as more than merely punitive, but rather as reformative, or, probably better yet, actually formative in nature.
 
Alright, I think it could be said that he *chose *to not recognize his dependency on God, and this is paralleled in us whenever we also deny or ignore the truth in order to gain some perceived benefit or another. But I still wonder how any being created as great as Adam was could do such a foolish and unreasonable thing as to deny Gods’ authority, effectively denying His godhood.

But was it really, totally, a choice? Could we cut Adam some slack by recognizing that, while he was created good, and better yet, possessed higher gifts that we don’t have, he still lacked one thing, he was’t God, and therefore lacked the perfection of God including God’s perfect wisdom. Maybe wrong choices weren’t so easily avoided; maybe only God is perfect enough for that-and man’s lesson to be learned in this world that he’s been exiled into is of his utter dependency on God. Once that lesson is truly learned, by Adam or his descendants, man won’t fall again- he’ll trust in God rather than himself or anyone else after all.
The reason some, not all, people are working very hard to cut Adam some slack is that they do not want to face the reality of original sin. By ignoring the reality of original sin, it becomes easy to deny the divinity of Christ.

The Catholic Church, which has the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16) knows that Divine Revelation of original sin cannot be tampered without undermining the Mystery of Christ.
 
Trying to find a way to at least partially excuse Adam is OK as far as it goes… but, the trouble is, it just doesn’t go far enough. And, there is the temptation that if we are able to excuse Adam - then surely the sins that we commit would never add up to the Original Sin.

God bless
Bingo!

👍
 
God blamed Adam-& yet God knew the Blessed Fault would occur before it was committed-and planned for it in fact to bring a greater good out of the evil He knew would occur. So, while I don’t think Adam should be cavalierly excused, I do wonder if the fault wasn’t virtually inevitable in any case; God’s awesome plan of salvation already in place before man had even become lost. This all ties in with His creating the universe in a “state of journeying” as per the CCC:

302 Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created “in a state of journeying” (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it. We call “divine providence” the dispositions by which God guides his creation toward this perfection:
By his providence God protects and governs all things which he has made, “reaching mightily from one end of the earth to the other, and ordering all things well”. For “all are open and laid bare to his eyes”, even those things which are yet to come into existence through the free action of creatures.

310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better. But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.


I think the consequences of the Fall should be looked upon as more than merely punitive, but rather as reformative, or, probably better yet, actually formative in nature.
Please do not tell me that I am the same as a created rock. I was told that when I first landed on CAF.:mad:
 
Hi,
Trying to find a way to at least partially excuse Adam is OK as far as it goes… but, the trouble is, it just doesn’t go far enough. And, there is the temptation that if we are able to excuse Adam - then surely the sins that we commit would never add up to the Original Sin.

God bless
It’s not about looking for a way to dismiss OS by excusing Adam, at least not for me, because the doctrine of OS lies at the heart of our faith-the explanation for evil and the reason for Christs’ sacrificial Atonement. My purpose is to seek to understand-in real-life human terms-why/how Adam, created good by God, could have done such a thing.
 
It’s not about looking for a way to dismiss OS by excusing Adam, at least not for me, because the doctrine of OS lies at the heart of our faith-the explanation for evil and the reason for Christs’ sacrificial Atonement. My purpose is to seek to understand-in real-life human terms-why/how Adam, created good by God, could have done such a thing.
seek to understand-in-real-life human terms

May I respectfully point out the obvious. “real-life human terms” does include a human nature which is an unique unification of both an immortal super-natural soul created by God and a real-life decomposing anatomy.

In trying to figure out how any person, starting with the first person Adam, could go against her or his ultimate good, one must, absolutely, include an analysis of the spiritual soul. Looking at a partial human only gives a partial answer.

To begin, what is your understanding of your spiritual soul?

Please remember that our human nature has not been totally corrupted by the state of original sin. It is wounded in the natural powers proper to it. Before sin, the first man was free from the triple concupiscence of the immoral pleasures of the senses; the covetousness or greed for earthly goods; and the pride or self-assertion, all of which are contrary to the dictates of reason. (Source: 1 John 2: 12-17) As John points out, concupiscence is part of the material environment, i.e., world.

Adam enjoyed the harmony of original justice. While he could maintain “mastery” in the natural garden, he still had the super-natural powers of his spiritual soul. His super-natural gift of free will gave him two options – exploring the material world and the spiritual world of God. Notice Adam’s familiarity with his God in the first three chapters of Genesis.

If a person has a choice between the material world of a natural rotting garden and the spiritual world of happiness forever, which would be chosen?

Adam’s intellective abilities told him that in order to remain forever in a spiritual world of happiness, he would have to live in free submission to his superior Creator. Because of his spiritual ability to reason, Adam could freely doubt that it was really, really necessary to live according to God’s stipulations for eternal friendship. In a sense, he was unhappy with his creaturely status. He preferred himself over God.(Source: CCC 398) This is clear disobedience. This is serious disobedience which shattered Adam’s relationship with God.

However one interprets Adam eating organic fruit, it is the specific act of scorning God which became the original sin.

Because Adam was specifically called to share in God’s own life through **knowledge **and love, Adam knew the consequence of both obedience and disobedience and consequently freely chose to love himself instead of God.
 
Hello all,
I haven’t posted on the forums for a while because I’ve been going through a period of intense doubt.

My first problem is scientific. Humans came from multiple parents, not just two individuals. Evolutionarily speaking, two humans would not provide enough genetic diversity to allow the human species to continue to grow. All the scientific evidence points against a literal Adam and a literal Eve; yet theologically, Protestants and Catholics both view original sin as something inherited–like our eye color, it’s in our DNA, our genes. Cardinal George Pell recently said that Catholics can believe in evolution and without a literal Adam and Eve, but if there was no original Adam and Eve, there could be no original consumption of forbidden fruit. Therefore, how could we actually inherit original sin?🤷

Because Catholics believe original sin is inherited, God, in His grace, gave Mary extra special graces to preserve her from inheriting original sin. This is the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. This does fit in nicely with the sin-as-inherited view of Christianity because it explains how Jesus could be born without sin. But at the same time, the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception suffers from a problem of infinite regression. Why is this applied to Mary, but not Saint Anne, Mary’s mother? For that matter, why didn’t God preserve anybody else from original sin?😦

On a related note, the whole Garden of Eden scenario sounds like a cruel game. God created the forbidden fruit, knowing full well that it would cause multiple problems to Adam and Eve if they ate from it. Why create a forbidden fruit at all? :confused:

The typical response to this is usually something like, “God created the forbidden fruit to give Adam and Eve free will.” But this simply doesn’t make sense in light of Augustinian theology, which maintains that free will is nothing more than the ability to make the RIGHT choice, not the ability to make the wrong choice. Indeed, Augustine maintains that the will is most free when choosing what is right. If there were no forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve would still have been able to make the right choice.

The question of the forbidden fruit also brings up the question of theodicy. Adam and Eve, both chose to eat the forbidden fruit, but God still created it. Although the act of eating the forbidden fruit was sinful, God was still the primary cause of this sin because He created the fruit.

And this is where most of my questions return. How is God not responsible for evil, either in His direct actions, as the case with the forbidden fruit, or in His inaction?

Or, in Catholic theological terms, how is God not sinful in matters of commission (direct acts of evil) and omission (failing to do good, when good can be done)?
God bless you for your wrestling, brother! Faith requires honesty, and honesty requires that we face our questions head on! It is exactly this kind of wrestling with tradition that makes a good Catholic… it’s not adherence to tradition, it’s wrestling with it. Vatican II explicitly rejected the notion that we have to conform to every church teaching this way or that way.

I’ll even one-up you on the historicity of Genesis 1-2. To read it literally is to miss its point! It wasn’t written as actual history. The Pentateuch represents the Jewish people’s situating themselves as a people in God’s plan, with revealed truths not necessarily representing literal truth. Genesis 1-2 tells us that God was building a place for himself to live alongside his beloved creation: heaven and earth were the places where God and humans would live in close union.

The doctrine of original sin is a response to the age-old philosophical problem of evil. Why is there evil in the world? To say that human nature is capable of perfection on its own flies in the face of solid, historical evidence to the contrary. Enlightenment Europe was stunned by the onset of WW1… they thought it impossible that the learned nations could resort to barbarism, yet they did.

I don’t read Genesis literally. I agree with you that there are problems in a doctrine of original sin that requires the historicity of Adam and Eve. But I can’t say that problems with it mean that it’s not representing something real.

Jesus, in his Incarnation, told us that the Kingdom of God was here, now! The Apostles in Acts showed us what that means. God acts through us to make his Kingdom. That’s how I see original sin. Without Christ, humanity is destined to war, war, war. And Christian wars have taken place when Christians have appropriated the self-importance of might.
 
God bless you for your wrestling, brother! Faith requires honesty, and honesty requires that we face our questions head on! It is exactly this kind of wrestling with tradition that makes a good Catholic… it’s not adherence to tradition, it’s wrestling with it. Vatican II explicitly rejected the notion that we have to conform to every church teaching this way or that way.

.
Briefly, the** point** of reading the first three chapters of Genesis is not its literalness or whatever. The **point **is to understand the basic Divine Revelation contained in these three chapters. Because Divine Revelation is the foundation for the Catholic Church, it is helpful to also understand Chapter 14 of the Gospel of John.

Personally, I do not believe Vatican II explicitly said it was o.k. for Catholics to deny Divine Revelation. Did it?
 
**
Because Adam was specifically called to share in God’s own life through **knowledge ****and love, Adam knew the consequence of both obedience and disobedience and consequently freely chose to love himself instead of God.
And all of that tells me virtually nothing about why he did so, why he chose to scorn God, why he preferred himself to the love of God. Except that in ‘real life human terms’ we experience this same phenomenon at times-we know what selfishness “looks like”, we know that love is more often than not dismissed, undervalued. We can sense our own falleness in our and others’ failure to love as we should, in our sin. If we’re lucky we may even be shown a glimpse of our loss, a glimpse of this very profound love of God that contrasts so strikingly with the ways of this world.

Aquinas said Adams’ sin consisted in an inordinate desire for a spiritual good, to be God. And this is known as pride, a desire for ones own excellence, out of measure with ones’ true status. I’m still unsure as to where this inordinate desire came from, what *it’s *genesis was, Why did Adam prefer himself to God; how did he, essentially, value himself over God? That is the essence of the fall, our separation from God, something all humankind carries with itself into this world at birth.
 
And all of that tells me virtually nothing about why he did so, why he chose to scorn God, why he preferred himself to the love of God. Except that in ‘real life human terms’ we experience this same phenomenon at times-we know what selfishness “looks like”, we know that love is more often than not dismissed, undervalued. We can sense our own falleness in our and others’ failure to love as we should, in our sin. If we’re lucky we may even be shown a glimpse of our loss, a glimpse of this very profound love of God that contrasts so strikingly with the ways of this world.

Aquinas said Adams’ sin consisted in an inordinate desire for a spiritual good, to be God. And this is known as pride, a desire for ones own excellence, out of measure with ones’ true status. I’m still unsure as to where this inordinate desire came from, what *it’s *genesis was, Why did Adam prefer himself to God; how did he, essentially, value himself over God? That is the essence of the fall, our separation from God, something all humankind carries with itself into this world at birth.
The essence of the fall, of course, is God. Every essence comes from God . So why dd Adam prefer himself to God? Because God made Adam in such a way that Adam would prefer himself to God.
 
The essence of the fall, of course, is God. Every essence comes from God . So why dd Adam prefer himself to God? Because God made Adam in such a way that Adam would prefer himself to God.
If so then God would be the author of sin/evil. And if this is true, then the concepts of sin/evil are fallacies along with any reason for righteousness indignation or moral outrage at any ‘falsely’ perceived injustices in this world.
 
The essence of the fall, of course, is God. Every essence comes from God . So why dd Adam prefer himself to God? Because God made Adam in such a way that Adam would prefer himself to God.
Not exactly. Adam received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man.” (Source: footnote 293, St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo 4, 1 found in CCC 404). Obviously, since there are two distinct choices, Adam was made in such a way that he could prefer God to himself and the unfortunate reverse. Thus, Adam was not predestined one way or another.
 
Did Adam have a “flaw”? What did Adam lack that would’ve caused him to make such a wrong choice?
 
If so then God would be the author of sin/evil.
Yes, of course God is the author of sin and evil. He is the cretor of everything, isn’t He?
And if this is true, then the concepts of sin/evil are fallacies
Yes, if the God of catholicism exists, the concepts of sin and evil are fallacies.
along with any reason for righteousness indignation or moral outrage at any ‘falsely’ perceived injustices in this world.
Well, if the God od catholicism exists, he is resposible for every injustice in the world. I see no reason why we could not be morally outrages by the injustice of such a monster.
 
Not exactly. Adam received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man.” (Source: footnote 293, St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo 4, 1 found in CCC 404). Obviously, since there are two distinct choices, Adam was made in such a way that he could prefer God to himself and the unfortunate reverse. Thus, Adam was not predestined one way or another.
So the ‘unfortunate reverse’ was just an uncaused event? If so, how can Adam be held responsible?
 
Did Adam have a “flaw”? What did Adam lack that would’ve caused him to make such a wrong choice?
Well, he must have lacked something. And why did he lack something? Because God made him so. There is no escape from this. conclusion.
 
Did Adam have a “flaw”? What did Adam lack that would’ve caused him to make such a wrong choice?
Think positive!!!

What did Adam have which enabled him to choose between two choices?
 
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