Original sin...

[Exiled_Child]

Oh, Robyn, I totally enjoyed reading all your posts in this thread! Really, really well said. Thank you.

 

[Vico]

…

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that “. . . the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand.” That’s not very helpful. I’m still in agreement with the original poster, Convert in 99. Why is it right that we suffer for someone else’s action? It makes no sense.

Adam and Eve were given gifts which were beyond human nature, both spiritual (sanctifying grace) and preternatural (Integrity, Immortality and Infused Knowledge). They are gifts which means they and their descendents have no right to them, they are given in charity only. Therefore it is not an injustice. It is natural that creatures experience stress and death.

 

[Robyn_p]

Oh, Robyn, I totally enjoyed reading all your posts in this thread! Really, really well said. Thank you.

Glad it could help.

 

[Nixbits]

Robyn p:

That’s what the resurrection was all about. Christ’s victory over death, which Adam brought into the world through his disobedience. We just don’t experience the full fruit of it right now. We have to wait for the end of time for that. But He did undo it.

You’re saying that Christ removed the physical death that Adam’s fall brought into the world, but we have to physically die and wait for the end of time before we get that removal of physical death? Really? To me, that’s identical to not removing death in the physical world. We can indulge in whatever verbal gymnastics we want. The fact remains that humans experience death in the physical world.

As for the analogy of Original Sin, I think that the problem that many people have is that it seems that everyone is on death row because one person broke the law thousands of years ago. There is no concept of morality or justice whereby this seems fair.

 

[grannymh]

Originally Posted by grannymh

 

[fred_conty]

You’re saying that Christ removed the physical death that Adam’s fall brought into the world, but we have to physically die and wait for the end of time before we get that removal of physical death? Really? To me, that’s identical to not removing death in the physical world. We can indulge in whatever verbal gymnastics we want. The fact remains that humans experience death in the physical world.

As for the analogy of Original Sin, I think that the problem that many people have is that it seems that everyone is on death row because one person broke the law thousands of years ago. There is no concept of morality or justice whereby this seems fair.

When death is referred to in scripture or in religious terms, it frequently means eternal death, not physical death. Physical death is natural to man as man. He grows old and he dies…natural. He is an animal, and all animals die…natural. That is the way man is…he dies.

But what happens to him after physical death? Anything? Does he cease to exist? Is he gone and that’s it?

Well Jesus says “no” because he came to save us from that fate. To give us eternal life with him in his home in his kingdom where life is so wonderful that there are no words to describe it. That is the life that he has promised those who believe him…eternal life of happiness.

What happens to the others who turn him down? That’s for another thread.

All animals die, so we being among them, it is fair that we too die.
I know, you may be thinking we aren’t animals…oh but yes we are, even tho we have more to us.

Besides I know that some people look forward to the day they die because they suffer so much or are too old to live any meaningful life. Dying can be a good thing too for many different kinds of people.

May God our Father give you grace and peace.

 

[Robyn_p]

You’re saying that Christ removed the physical death that Adam’s fall brought into the world, but we have to physically die and wait for the end of time before we get that removal of physical death? Really? To me, that’s identical to not removing death in the physical world. We can indulge in whatever verbal gymnastics we want. The fact remains that humans experience death in the physical world.

Nixbits, what is your religious background or affiliation? (if any) It would help to know where you are coming from and what your worldview is before we continue here. I was coming at the question from the standpoint of what Catholics believe has been revealed to us, but if you don’t share that viewpoint, I would come at it from a different angle.

As for the analogy of Original Sin, I think that the problem that many people have is that it seems that everyone is on death row because one person broke the law thousands of years ago. There is no concept of morality or justice whereby this seems fair.

I see where you are getting hung up now. The problem is you see Original sin as some kind of external punishment, like a prison sentence. But this isn’t what Original sin is. We’re not being ‘‘punished’’ for a crime we didn’t commit. We simply have to live with the intrinsic consequences of their actions.

Adam and Eve’s sin radically altered human nature. They broke it. We are their descendants, so we receive their broken nature. It’s not really about justice or fairness. We can argue all day about whether it’s fair that a child born to a drug addict has to live with the consequences of his mother’s drug addiction. But in the end, it’s about reality. Whether we like it or not, we human beings ARE connected to each other. We’re not isolated individuals.

 

[Vico]

You’re saying that Christ removed the physical death that Adam’s fall brought into the world, but we have to physically die and wait for the end of time before we get that removal of physical death? Really? To me, that’s identical to not removing death in the physical world. We can indulge in whatever verbal gymnastics we want. The fact remains that humans experience death in the physical world.

As for the analogy of Original Sin, I think that the problem that many people have is that it seems that everyone is on death row because one person broke the law thousands of years ago. There is no concept of morality or justice whereby this seems fair.

God told Adam that he would die if he ate of the fruit, and both he and Eve ate it, therefore they lost the supernatural and preternatural gifts. Because they lost them, those gifts were not inherited by mankind. There is no injustice in God not giving mankind the same gift.

Look at the parabel of the workers in the Gospel of Matthew 20:1-16, excerpt:14 Take what is thine, and go thy way: I will also give to this last even as to thee.
15 Or, is it not lawful for me to do what I will? is thy eye evil, because I am good?
16 So shall the last be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.

 

[Robyn_p]

You’re saying that Christ removed the physical death that Adam’s fall brought into the world, but we have to physically die and wait for the end of time before we get that removal of physical death? Really? To me, that’s identical to not removing death in the physical world. We can indulge in whatever verbal gymnastics we want. The fact remains that humans experience death in the physical world.

I still would like to know what your background is as I think we might be coming at this from two different perspectives, but I’ll try and address what you say here.

I never said Christ removed death from this physical world. I said He undid the curse of Adam - both spiritual and physical death - through His resurrection, but we have to wait until the end of time to fully share in that victory. (We get the spiritual benefits right now, just not the physical) I don’t quite see how that is verbal gymnastics.
You may not like that we have to wait, I certainly don’t, but it doesn’t follow that just because we still die, Jesus didn’t really undo Adam’s sin. He did. The Resurrection is proof of that.

See for Christians, the hope of the resurrection changes everything. That’s when all wrongs will finally be made right and everything will be made new. I don’t know if you share this belief or not, but it’s impossible to understand the Christian teaching of Original sin without also understanding what Christ did to fix things. If we separate them, then neither one makes sense. The two are intimately connected.

 

[Nixbits]

To clarify, my background is Roman Catholic, so I think that my understanding of what is meant by Original Sin comes from my Catholic schooling in the 1970s. I think the difficulty I have, and probably share with some people, is the use of the word ‘sin’. Sin implies a conscious action (or lack of action) by an individual that goes against God’s law and needs to be repented in order to return to God’s grace. But from what several have already said on this thread, Original Sin is not like this. It’s a shame, perhaps, that a different term was not coined that avoided the word ‘sin’.

 

[Robyn_p]

To clarify, my background is Roman Catholic, so I think that my understanding of what is meant by Original Sin comes from my Catholic schooling in the 1970s. I think the difficulty I have, and probably share with some people, is the use of the word ‘sin’. Sin implies a conscious action (or lack of action) by an individual that goes against God’s law and needs to be repented in order to return to God’s grace. But from what several have already said on this thread, Original Sin is not like this. It’s a shame, perhaps, that a different term was not coined that avoided the word ‘sin’.

Thanks for clarifying. I just didn’t want to assume anything. But I understand what you mean, and it makes sense why that would be confusing.

Interestingly though, the word ‘‘sin’’ is actually a translation from the Hebrew word ‘‘chattah’’ which means ‘‘to miss the mark.’’ When we think of sin in that way, it makes sense why the Church called the state we are born in Original sin. It literally is just the original ‘‘missing of the mark’’ so to speak. Our nature misses the mark. We are lacking something. But most people aren’t taught that meaning unfortunately. I know I wasn’t. I do wish it was more widely taught in religious ed classes. That would eliminate most of the confusion regarding what exactly Original sin is and isn’t.

 

[grannymh]

Thanks for clarifying. I just didn’t want to assume anything. But I understand what you mean, and it makes sense why that would be confusing.

Interestingly though, the word ‘‘sin’’ is actually a translation from the Hebrew word ‘‘chattah’’ which means ‘‘to miss the mark.’’ When we think of sin in that way, it makes sense why the Church called the state we are born in Original sin. It literally is just the original ‘‘missing of the mark’’ so to speak. Our nature misses the mark. We are lacking something. But most people aren’t taught that meaning unfortunately. I know I wasn’t. I do wish it was more widely taught in religious ed classes. That would eliminate most of the confusion regarding what exactly Original sin is and isn’t.

What we lack in the State of Original Sin is actually the Original Holiness of Adam. Adam lost his State of Original Holiness when he deliberatedly scorned his Creator. Adam literally shattered humanity’s relationship with Divinity. Being the first human, all humankind is in Adam “as one body of one man.” Re-read post 13, above. Vico quotes CCC 404 as the explanation for Original Sin as “contracted” and not “committed” – a state and not an act on our part.

Being true descendants of Adam, we naturally inherit his human state of a broken relationship with God. Being true descendants of Adam, we have Christ’s redeeming graces in the Sacrament of Baptism which puts us in the State of Sanctifying Grace.

From the Glossary, Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition
SANCTIFYING GRACE: The grace which heals our human nature wounded by sin by giving us a share in the divine life of the Trinity. It is a habitual, supernatural gift which continues the work of sanctifying us—of making us “perfect,” holy, and Christlike (1999).

Paragraph 1999

**1999 **The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of His own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the *sanctifying *or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, Who through Christ reconciled us to himself.

2 Corinthians 5: 17-18
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