Original Sin

[Elizium23]

Sorry to not indulge you on this aside, but I’m really not interested in defending an apostate idea.

Okay, so now you’ve revoked that doctrine and now you just believe he is Michael the Archangel. Hey, there is not much I could blame an archangel for.

 

[jane_doe]

Okay, so now you’ve revoked that doctrine and now you just believe he is Michael the Archangel. Hey, there is not much I could blame an archangel for.

I claim responsibility for my mistakes and sins as my own. Do you not?

 

[Elizium23]

I claim responsibility for my mistakes and sins as my own. Do you not?

How could Michael the Archangel commit a sin? Who was Eve? Was she an archangel too?

 

[jane_doe]

How could Michael the Archangel commit a sin? Who was Eve? Was she an archangel too?

Talk about not answering the question… do you or do you not take responsibility for your own sins?

If you want to talk about Michael the Archangel, I recommend you start a thread on it.

 

[Elizium23]

Talk about not answering the question… do you or do you not take responsibility for your own sins?

If you want to talk about Michael the Archangel, I recommend you start a thread on it.

There are two Mormons in THIS thread, attacking the Catholic doctrine and teachings on how to interpret Sacred Scripture. If this were some other forum, I would not be so insistent, but this is the Non-Catholic Religions forum, and so I think a fair trade for you would be if you attempted to justify the beliefs of your faith directly concerning the First Man and the Fall, that is, the source of Original Sin. I have not brought up plural marriage or celestial wives; I have not brought up the belief that Jesus was a teetotaler; I have not brought up Mormonism’s acceptance of abortion.

But I am interested in the nature of Adam, whom Catholics consider to be human just like you and me. Created in God’s own image (that is, with free will) and first victim of demonic influence. Adam and his offspring were expelled from Eden for his sin, and condemned to a very human life, rather than the paradise he enjoyed in the Garden. The stain of original sin still must be contended with today, and baptism washes away the stain, but not the consequences. We must still toil over the ground to eat its food. Women still suffer the pangs of childbirth. There is enmity between the woman and the serpent.

But there is great hope. The Blessed Virgin Mary, preserved from the stain of original sin from the moment of her conception, bore us a savior, the God-man, Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of the Father. Jesus suffered and died when we were still sinners, and paid for our sins on the Cross. He ascended into Heaven, and as a sign of God’s love for Mary, she also entered Heaven bodily, though not under her own power. She intercedes for us whenever we call on her in prayer.

So how could Michael the Archangel set all of this off in the same way? How could an angel beget the entire human race? Do Mormons say there are other angels in our ancestry as well?

 

[SteveVH]

I claim responsibility for my mistakes and sins as my own. Do you not?

Your statement evidences a misunderstanding of the Christian doctrine of Original Sin. It does not mean that we have inherited the personal sin of Adam and Eve and are therefore not responsible for our own sins. We are each responsible for the personal sins we commit. We still, however, suffer from the consequences of that first sin in that we are born deprived of spiritual life, thus the necessity of Baptism.

Peace to you.

Steve

 

[gazelam]

Your statement evidences a misunderstanding of the Christian doctrine of Original Sin. It does not mean that we have inherited the personal sin of Adam and Eve and are therefore not responsible for our own sins. We are each responsible for the personal sins we commit. We still, however, suffer from the consequences of that first sin in that we are born deprived of spiritual life, thus the necessity of Baptism.

Peace to you.

Steve

CCC 404 asks “How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants?” This question seems to imply a Catholic doctrine that Adam’s descendants inherited more than just consequences.

Also, I’m not trying to be a gotcha person since you probably already knew this next point, but the Eastern Orthodox don’t have a doctrine of original sin and I’m assume you believe them to be fully Christian.

oca.org/questions/teaching/st.-augustine-original-sin

So, perhaps the phrase “Christian doctrine of Original Sin” would be better phrases at the “Western Christian doctrine of Original Sin”, or “Roman Catholic doctrine of Original Sin”.

Peace to you too!

 

[jane_doe]

There are two Mormons in THIS thread, attacking the Catholic doctrine and teachings on how to interpret Sacred Scripture. If this were some other forum, I would not be so insistent, but this is the Non-Catholic Religions forum, and so I think a fair trade for you would be if you attempted to justify the beliefs of your faith directly concerning the First Man and the Fall, that is, the source of Original Sin. I have not brought up plural marriage or celestial wives; I have not brought up the belief that Jesus was a teetotaler; I have not brought up Mormonism’s acceptance of abortion.

But I am interested in the nature of Adam, whom Catholics consider to be human just like you and me. Created in God’s own image (that is, with free will) and first victim of demonic influence. Adam and his offspring were expelled from Eden for his sin, and condemned to a very human life, rather than the paradise he enjoyed in the Garden. The stain of original sin still must be contended with today, and baptism washes away the stain, but not the consequences. We must still toil over the ground to eat its food. Women still suffer the pangs of childbirth. There is enmity between the woman and the serpent.

But there is great hope. The Blessed Virgin Mary, preserved from the stain of original sin from the moment of her conception, bore us a savior, the God-man, Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of the Father. Jesus suffered and died when we were still sinners, and paid for our sins on the Cross. He ascended into Heaven, and as a sign of God’s love for Mary, she also entered Heaven bodily, though not under her own power. She intercedes for us whenever we call on her in prayer.

So how could Michael the Archangel set all of this off in the same way? How could an angel beget the entire human race? Do Mormons say there are other angels in our ancestry as well?

Elizium, no one is attacking Catholic doctrine. I, for one, am here (on CAF) to learn more about the Catholic beliefs. One of the posters asks how could someone see the Original Sin different than the Catholic view, so I explained my view (as a non-Catholic on the non-Catholic sub-forum).

So, to state concisely: Mormons view Adam’s Fall as bringing sin into the world, but I am the one whom brought sin into me (by choosing myself to turn away from God). I am responsible for my own sins, and not Adam. Likewise, Adam is to be held accountable for Adam’s sins and not me and I am not “stained” because of something he did. Hence denial of the Catholic Original Sin doctrine.

Things/people that do not directly have to do with Mormon understanding of the Original Sin: Brigham Young, Michael the Archangel, any other angels, plural marriage, celestial wives, abortion, or Jesus supposedly “teetotaler”-ing. If want to discuss any of these, I’d be happy to do it with you in another thread (let’s not derail this one).

Slightly on-topic is Adam’s nature: he was a man directly created by God. He and his wife Eve were the first to sin. We are not held accountable for this.

 

[jane_doe]

Your statement evidences a misunderstanding of the Christian doctrine of Original Sin. It does not mean that we have inherited the personal sin of Adam and Eve and are therefore not responsible for our own sins. We are each responsible for the personal sins we commit. We still, however, suffer from the consequences of that first sin in that we are born deprived of spiritual life, thus the necessity of Baptism.

Peace to you.

Steve

Thanks for the clarification! Could you elaborate on “the consequences of that first sin in that we are born deprived of spiritual life”?

 

[Vico]

CCC 404 asks “How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants?” This question seems to imply a Catholic doctrine that Adam’s descendants inherited more than just consequences.

Also, I’m not trying to be a gotcha person since you probably already knew this next point, but the Eastern Orthodox don’t have a doctrine of original sin and I’m assume you believe them to be fully Christian.

oca.org/questions/teaching/st.-augustine-original-sin

So, perhaps the phrase “Christian doctrine of Original Sin” would be better phrases at the “Western Christian doctrine of Original Sin”, or “Roman Catholic doctrine of Original Sin”.

Peace to you too!

As posted before int post #3, including from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

The Latin Church has used two terms associated with guilt, one is personal guilt of original sin, and the other is the contracted state by the descendents:

• reatus culpae - personal guilt, the actual sin of Adam and Eve
• reatus poenae - the inherited consequences of the sin of Adam and Eve by those with no personal guilt. Only the consequence of lack of sanctifying grace at birth (for which we must be baptized) is known as the stain of original sin. There are other consequences besides the stain of original sin.

CCC 404 "…original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

Also 404 states: “…the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature.”

 

[jane_doe]

As posted before int post #3, including from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

The Latin Church has used two terms associated with guilt, one is personal guilt of original sin, and the other is the contracted state by the descendents:

• reatus culpae - personal guilt, the actual sin of Adam and Eve
• reatus poenae - the inherited consequences of the sin of Adam and Eve by those with no personal guilt. Only the consequence of lack of sanctifying grace at birth (for which we must be baptized) is known as the stain of original sin. There are other consequences besides the stain of original sin.

CCC 404 "…original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

Also 404 states: “…the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature.”

So those not baptized cannot be touched by God’s grace? If so, then how would the Spirit ever touch someone to prompt them to be baptized? (Talking about adult converts)

 

[Vico]

So those not baptized cannot be touched by God’s grace? If so, then how would the Spirit ever touch someone to prompt them to be baptized? (Talking about adult converts)

That is an excellent question. There is a distinction made between actual grace and justifying grace. Actual grace is further divined into preventing grace and co-operating grace. God first gives preventing grace which acts without the will of the person.Justification. A biblio-ecclesiastical term; which denotes the transforming of the sinner from the state of unrighteousness to the state of holiness and sonship of God. Considered as an act (actus justificationis), justification is the work of God alone, presupposing, however, on the part of the adult the process of justification and the cooperation of his free will with God’s preventing and helping grace (gratia praeveniens et cooperans).
Pohle, J. (1910). Justification. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company.
newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htmActual Grace. In what way, one instinctively asks, did God provide for the salvation of the heathen? Theologians to-day generally give the following presentation of the process: It is presupposed that, according to Hebr., xi, 6, the two dogmas of the existence of God and of future retribution must be, in all instances, believed not only, by necessity of means (necessitate medii), but also with explicit faith (fide explicita) before the process of justification can be initiated. As a consequence, God will not refrain in extraordinary cases from miraculous intervention in order to save a noble-minded heathen who conscientiously observes the natural moral law. He may either, in a miraculous manner, depute a missionary to him (Acts 1:1 sqq.), or teach him the revealed truth through an angel (Cardinal Toletus), or he may come to his assistance by an interior private revelation.
Pohle, J. (1909). Actual Grace. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company.
newadvent.org/cathen/06689x.htm

 

[Elizium23]

preventing grace

Vico means prevenient grace.

 

[KathleenGee]

One part the Orthodox agree with is that Mary was conceived without sin, she especially made by the Heavenly Father…and so in a round about way…the Orthodox do set Blessed Mother aside from the rest of humanity.

I have worked among atheists and agnostics for some time. I am very fortunate to have Christian clients…usually the minority looking back. But I see God’s humanity, kindness in most of my former clients, and I have seen some bad behavior in my Christian clients.

First, God is the author of creation. And each one of us is blessed with free will and intellect, the two marks that make us an image of God. I also like John Paul II’s teaching on the conscience…each one of us is given a conscience deep within our being…where the Holy Spirit speaks to us…with Natural Law…God creating this world according to weights and measures…and He follows the laws He has created…no hypocrite is God…So we are all blessed with inner components where we are not born into this world akin to ‘Rosemary’s Baby’.

The Original Sin of Adam and Eve is that they broke from God…and wanted to be gods like Him.

Receiving the sacraments, studying sanctity by the saints…in alignment with Sacred Scripture, one can see that this Original Sin was so perverting that it extended way into the universe…think of good people on a journey and then a landslide comes down a hill and kills them all…

This perversion was so profound…that it extended into Adam and Eve’s descendants…think of parents who are not the best…and how their children take on bad behaviors starting with minute attitudes or bad habits…not necessarily sins in themselves, but conditions that lead to sin.

Our faults are what leads us to sin so many times…

And Adam and Eve were thrust out of God’s company to toil and suffer in this world…but the Tree of Life, that had the only good fruit pointed out to them in Genesis 3…and they were indifferent to eat of it…was now likewise out of the garden ahead of them, separated by an angel with a sword of fire…there was hope in this Tree of Life.

So in earliest man…there was no bible, no sacrament…no religious affiliation per se but an emerging Jewish people that likewise drew on ancient mythologies…

And mythologies…not exactly true in themselves…have truth of God in them.

Abraham became the Father of the Jews…and also the descendants of Hagar…this conflict we see up to today…and likewise this dual a sign of fracture and sin.

Mary’s parents, Joachim and Anna, likewise had Original Sin…but God protected Mary from receiving it…this proclivity to sin…and Mary had to be that much more saved and redeemed, to become the Mother of God.

Both Catholics and Orthodox agree that Mary is Virgin Most Pure, Most Immaculate, and set aside from the rest of the human race…

In the OT, a just man sins 7 times a day…and St. Paul stated who likewise had a ‘thorn in his flesh’…that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

Remedy is understanding the Word of God, obeying the commandments, receiving the Sacraments and going to Mass, the spirit of detachment, and the help of the Virgin Mary and the saints to strengthen us from our proclivity to sin.

 

[Rohzek]

One part the Orthodox agree with is that Mary was conceived without sin, she especially made by the Heavenly Father…and so in a round about way…the Orthodox do set Blessed Mother aside from the rest of humanity.

I think you misunderstand our official position. Orthodox believe that Mary never sinned within her lifetime. However, whether or not Mary was conceived and born without Original or Ancestral sin is a different question entirely. While the Orthodox do not have an official position on such, most actually reject the Immaculate Conception in any form.

 

[Vico]

Vico means prevenient grace.

Prevenient grace is a synonym for preventing grace. I learned the term “preventing grace” from the Baltimore Catechism when I was trained. Modern Catholic Dictionary has the definition:
PREVENTING GRACE. The grace that goes before the free consent of the will. It moves the will spontaneously, inclining it to God. A preventing grace may be a good thought or a good impulse, without human effort, to perform some action that leads to heaven.
therealpresence.org/cgi-bin/getdefinition.pl

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Prevenient and preventing are English derivatives of the exact same Latin word. They mean the same thing here (coming before).

 

[Elizium23]

Prevenient and preventing are English derivatives of the exact same Latin word. They mean the same thing here (coming before).

 

[KathleenGee]

Eastern Brother Rohzek,

Yes, I was not clear…but saying Mary was conceived without sin…essentially still means she is the Immaculate Conception…Latin brethren like things defined…

 

[KathleenGee]

Jane Doe,

Do the Mormons believe still in pre mortal existence…where God was once a man like us?
Do they still believe that Eve ate the forbidden fruit so she could become wise?

I am reading this book by a Jewish rabbi on proper speech and avoiding derogatory speech, which they name as ‘Loshon Hora’. The rabbi’s name and book is: ‘The Concepts and Laws of Proper Speech As Formulated by Sefer Chofetz Chaim’, recommended by my association with the Hebrew Catholics (www.hebrewcatholic.net).

The rabbi states that the very first sin of Loshon Hora in its historical perspective, was done in the Garden of Eden.

‘Loshon Hora’ has the distinction of being the first sin ever committed. We know that the Serpent enticed Eve to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. To accomplish his aim, the Serpent utilized the classic ‘loshon hora’ approach that is used even today.

“You should know that the boss is jealous of you. He’s stunting your growth in the company. You really are as good as he is.”

In this case, the ‘Boss’ was Hashem, the Lord. The Serpent told Eve that all Hashem had to do to become the Creator was to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. He drew the logical conclusion that if Adam and Eve were to eat from that same tree they would become just like the Lord. Obviously, reasoned the Serpent, the Lord did not want ‘competition’ and that is why He forbade Adam and Eve from partaking of the tree’s fruits.

The particular method which the Serpent used so successfully was a combination of derogatory speech and gossip; he claimed the Lord was not concerned about their bests interests and that the Lord was merely using a ploy to keep them from competing with Him.

We know, all too well, the result of the Serpent’s evil words. Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden. Difficult toil to produce food became the lot of men, while childbirth pain became the lot of women. Death was introduced to the world. On man’s very first day on earth, derogatory speech, Loshon Hora, had already demonstrated its destructive power.

The Chofetz Chaim puts it succinctly: “One who speaks “Loshon Hora” attaches himself to a practice that destroys the world.”’

So in this scenario, we see the effects of Original Sin in the world.

Eve disobeyed God to become like a god, not to seek wisdom. And she led Adam to eat of the forbidden fruit.

We suffer the effects of Original Sin because we suffer to eat and give birth, we know death, we see destruction and evil works and speech…where now profanity is common use in every day conversations. So many people inclined to be falsehoods and slander rather than look at a person’s intent and humanity.

Each one of us is created in the image of God with intellect and free will. Our greatest part of our being is our immortal soul. We are given conscience…that needs to be recognized and cultivated…all people are born with a conscience and Christ’s grace from when He was on the Cross, raises all of creation up to Himself…the pagans have a conscience…

I have heard the story of a pagan servant…in Africa, who accidentally washed his employer’s money/bills, and afterwards hung every bill on the clothes line along with the clothes…that is the grace of conscience at work.