Original Sin

[grannymh]

My poor analogy was describing God, original sin, and the suffering that has come forth since then. Ultimately I know God is God and I am not. So I mean no disrespect. It just seems like the rest of humanity since Adam and Eve have suffered greatly because of some one else’s mistake is all. I didn’t ask for this sin nature. I can’t help that I’m unable to be perfect 365 days of the year in thought, word, and deed. But yet, I stand guilty anyways. I wonder if Adam and Eve knew of the repercussions of their decision before hand. Did they know they would ultimately bring about death, war, disease, famine, etc…Remind me to have a little talk with Adam and Eve if I ever make it to heaven. Was it truly necessary for God to allow this domino reaction? Maybe it was. I dunno. I obviously look at suffering as bad and not how things ought to be. It’s just something that bothers me greatly. Thanks for your replies and understanding.

A little talk with Adam and Eve…

If this granny ever meets Adam, she is going to slap him upside the head.

Post 8 is respectful and so are you. Most of the flawed analogies can be respectful.

One flaw is that one cannot describe God as a human regardless if God’s actions appear to be the same as a human’s. Another possible flaw can be found in going backwards from our suffering in a suffering world to those famous pictures of God kicking Adam and Eve out of His sight. The flaw is stopping the backwards process at that point. If we are to really understand Original Sin, we have to go all the way back to the beginning in Genesis 1: 1. We have to get to know God first.

I agree with you that we did not ask for this sin nature, whatever that means. Our human nature is a beautiful gift from God. Because we are born with this nature, (Genesis 1: 27) we are invited by God to “to share, by knowledge and love, in God’s own life.” "Of all visible creatures only man is ‘able to know and love his creator.’ " (Both quotes are from CCC 356) Unlike some other teachings from the first Protestant reformers, the Catholic Church teaches that Adam’s human nature was not totally corrupted. It is wounded in the natural powers proper to it. (Information source. CCC 405-406)

Post 19 has valid questions. Hopefully, I could offer you answers. But then, what would I learn from you when it comes to the initial relationship between Adam and God.? (Genesis 1: 27-28; Genesis 2: 15-17; CCC 396; CCC 1730). The initial relationship between creature and Creator is key. Thus, I am very curious about your ideas. Please share.

One last thing – My brother and I are planning a road trip which means I may not be able to post as often as I want. “Like a bad penny” eventually, I will show up here.

 

[Louman127]

My poor analogy was describing God, original sin, and the suffering that has come forth since then. Ultimately I know God is God and I am not. So I mean no disrespect. It just seems like the rest of humanity since Adam and Eve have suffered greatly because of some one else’s mistake is all. I didn’t ask for this sin nature. I can’t help that I’m unable to be perfect 365 days of the year in thought, word, and deed. But yet, I stand guilty anyways. I wonder if Adam and Eve knew of the repercussions of their decision before hand. Did they know they would ultimately bring about death, war, disease, famine, etc…Remind me to have a little talk with Adam and Eve if I ever make it to heaven. Was it truly necessary for God to allow this domino reaction? Maybe it was. I dunno. I obviously look at suffering as bad and not how things ought to be. It’s just something that bothers me greatly. Thanks for your replies and understanding.

Well they did actually know because God said to not eat of it or even touch it lest they die. Now to the extent of wars breaking out and disease etc. No one really knows but could only two people on the planet have a war? Obviously no. So they may have knew nothing about war or disease. But He was merciful because they were sorry. So although God said what was going to happen. He gave the warning and since He is God, He is truth. So, what happened was what they were warned about. Death but only physical death. God was merciful because they were spared permanent death (hell). You want to have a talk with them. It sounds you may have resentment for them. You must be able to forgive them for without them you wouldn’t be here at all. Was it truly necessary? Yes. You have to understand God operates in perfection always. God could have forgiven everyone’s sins without suffering and dying. But God Almighty operates in perfection and chose to be humiliated, suffer and die on a Cross. So, although our imperfect minds might think it would be better for Jesus not to have suffered and died, God is perfect and operates in perfection and knows perfectly what is. So one could ask the same questions just about anywhere in Church teaching. Why this? Why that? What is needed is trust. These truths are clouded for you. In order for the understanding you seek you must believe and submit first. Then the mind will be “unlocked” to comprehend these things better. Trying to figure things out prior to giving the assesnt of faith will leave you always battling onto the next issue in Scripture and about the faith. And as I said before. Why does God permit evil to happen? Well we got the ball rolling with sin so now we die, however we have an “out”. A Saviour. Some people will end in hell but the people who end in heaven will have a much greater glory than Adam and Eve did in the begining. So why does God allow evil? To bring the greater good out it. He is God and can do anything even including bringing greater good out of evil. Strength is made perfect in weakness. God operates in perfection only. Imperfect beings do not operate perfectly and so therefore cannot reason perfectly. Therefore can never grasp fully and correctly 100% of the time. Also keep up responding to these graces you’re getting by learning the faith. God bless you my friend.

 

[PJM]

=Fragglerock;13408166]Are we (all of humanity) paying for the sins of Adam and Eve? If so, I don’t quite understand. Why are we paying for someone else’s mistake? I mean we’re talking about a mistake that has ultimately caused massive amounts of suffering to countless generations. I have this sin nature due to simply being born and I stand in judgement cause of it. I wish we could’ve all been able to vote on a better representative of mankind other than Adam and Eve considering all that was at stake. Can someone explain this to me in terms that make sense? I’m looking into Catholicism but I’ve got some issues here and there that I want to make sure I understand first. Thank you.

A REALLY great question

Let’s begin here:
Isaiah 55: 7-9
"let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have mercy on him,and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts,neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD.For as the heavens are higher than the earth,so are my ways higher than your ways" and my thoughts than your thought":

While its permitted to try [as you are here] to better understand our God; care is to be taken to avoid being judgmental; assuming that we can know more or know better than our perfect God.

There are two points to your question:

1. Why Original sin
2. Why the suffering

In order to better understand Original sin we need to recognize that Adam ans Even had literally a “perfect” exsitence. They were given and provided for every possible need and “want”; except to actually be God. Which BTW was also Lucifer’s sin.

Gen. 3:5 “For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil”

A & E freely gave up everything to attain the ONLY thing they did not have! So their sin was not simply one of theft or disobedience; but denial of God’s Sovereignty over them.

Up to this point God had Created Angels who like humanity have a mind, intellect and freewill [attached to our Souls] who before A& E committed the same sin; the same bad choice and the creation of Eternal HELL as punishment because of it.

Clearly Eternal hell is worse than the suffering that ensued from A & E’s sin. Yet in Divine Justice God was Justified in inflicting the punishments he choose. From God’s perspective this sin was so Grievous that only The Sn Of God [God himself: Jesus] could make “it” right again.] Thus the Incarnation

Now as for the suffering part:

Much of humanity today does not recognize the absolute necessity of suffering in our lives in order to PROVE to God that we DO love him.

After having in a sense [no surprises for all Knowing God] with Lucifer and again with A & E; God determined that all future creations made “in His Image” Gen. 1:26-27 would have to prove themselves if they were to MERIT what Satan and A & E were freely given. Eternal happiness. So that then explains briefly the WHY of the suffering.

Jesus came and Suffered NOT only to redeem humanity; by which we mean made possible conditionally eternal Heaven which had been BLOCKED as a result of Original Sin. But Jesus Suffered FAR more than ANY of his created humanity i order to demonstrate the need for us to “follow Him” in His SUFFERING.

Through suffering two possible goods occur:
1 God is Glorified

1. If we accept the suffering as our “cross” and offer it up to God: then God is Glorified and WE are Sanctified. If we do not accept and complain about it: God is still Glorified for having given is the change; but we loose the graces of our possible sanctification:thumbsup:…

Take Up your Cross and Follow Me
Phil.2: 8 “And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross Luke.9 :23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.Mark.8: 34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.** Luke.9: 23** And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke.14: 7 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple"

God Bless you,

Patrick

.

 

[grannymh]

The original relationship between Adam, the first human creature, and God, the Creator of all things visible and invisible, is a true relationship between unequal beings. It is God, as the Creator, Who established this relationship. This relationship, known as the state of Original Holiness and Justice, exists because the human creature is sharing in God’s life because the human creature is especially created in God’s image.
(Information source. Genesis 1: 26-27; Genesis 2: 15-17; CCC 355-358; CCC 396; CCC 362-366; CCC 1730-1732)

What is important to understand is that this state of Original Holiness and Justice is not established in cement. There is a requirement for its existence which is that Adam could only live in this friendship by freely choosing to live in free submission, that is, obedience to God. There cannot be two Gods at the same time.

In the beginning of Genesis, we see Adam as the only human alive. As Divine Revelation unfolded in the New Testament, we learn the importance of Adam to his descendants. St. Paul talks about Adam in Romans 5: 12-21 and 1 Corinthians 15: 21-22. We know by “Revelation” that Adam’s original state of Holiness was meant for all human nature which would follow via propagation. Recall that God directly, immediately creates each spiritual soul at human conception. This spiritual soul is the result so to speak of being in the image of our totally spiritual God. Adam’s friendship relationship with God is apparent when God places him in the Garden. It is also apparent in Genesis 2: 18-23. “Bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh” assures us that Eve, regardless of how she was formed, is in the state of Original Holiness and Justice. Together, Adam and Eve would transmit this state.

Adam freely chose to prefer himself over God and thus abusing his freedom, he deliberately disobeyed God’s command. (Genesis 2: 15-17; Genesis 3: 11; CCC 397-398)) The first tragic consequence was that Adam and Eve immediately lost their state of Original Holiness. The human nature we receive, as descendants of Adam and Eve, is in a state of Deprivation of Original Holiness and Justice; yet, our human nature has not been totally corrupted. (CCC 399)

Genesis 3: 15 points to our Divine Redeemer. (CCC 410-411) There is an important CCC sentence which assures us, each one of us, that the Good Shepherd is looking for us. His desire is to hold us in His arms.
**1260 **“Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.”

Blessings,
granny

**Like a shepherd ****He feeds His flock; **
**in His arms ****He gathers **the lambs, Isaiah 40: 11

 

[Cathain]

There have been some good answers already.

Personally, I think we have to see the results of Original Sin not necessarily as just a punishment, but as a logical consequence of our first parents’ choices.
As someone mentioned previously, if a child comes out of a broken home then chances are that they will carry some psychological scars (of a varying degree) as a result ,which may negatively impact their lives. In a similar way, a baby born to an addict mother might suffer from withdrawl or even defects as a result. These are not “punishments” as such, but merely the natural consequences of bad choices by other people. The affected person will likely wonder what they have done to deserve their state from time to time, but we don’t collectively scratch our heads in wonder at it because objectively we understand on some level that the actions of one person can affect another. We have lost sight of this truth in our modern Western societies to some extent, where the emphasis is on individualism and taking responsibility for yourself (and often only yourself). But in an older age, people more easily accepted the idea that - No man is an island unto himself. Our negative actions can affect others even in not wholly visible or perceptible ways.
So yes, the loss of our original state of grace is a punishment, but it’s one that Adam and Eve inflicted upon themselves, and on their descendants as a result.

The idea that we can inherent spiritual faults seems strange to us, but there’s no real reason why it should. We are told that humans are unique in creation in being a fusion of flesh and spirit. We can see from the after-effects of The Fall that both body and soul were affected. The soul lost it’s sanctifying grace, our will became impeded by disordered desires, our intellect darkened…and likewise the body became subject to disease and death. The first sin of our parents was a sin of the soul, but the body suffered too since body and soul are inseparable in humans until the time of death (which was not intended in the first). Thus, if things which affect the soul can affect the body then we should realise that both are intertwined and share similar characteristics. Thus, if we accept that a sin of the intellect or will (soul) in the Garden resulted in bodily flaws and faults and death, then it shouldn’t surprise us if the soul can inherit defects just as we know our bodies can in the sense of hereditary diseases, etc. God is not necessarily punishing us out of some sense of retribution, rather we are affected by the logical consequences of choices made by our forebears and have inherited their condition both in body and in soul.

However, it’s not all bad news.
God, as we know, can bring even greater good out of evil and turn seeming defeat into glorious victory. Suffering is an evil that we were not created for. But since The Fall, suffering can also be an instrument of purification and sanctification. We see that Job suffered greatly, and yet he persevered. In doing so he glorified God by his perseverance and faith, and sanctified himself too. No greater example of the value of suffering have we been given than that of Christ Himself. He who suffered for our sins, so that through death (which Satan planned as our final defeat) we may instead have eternal life.

 

[Frankenfurter]

God is not necessarily punishing us out of some sense of retribution, rather we are affected by the logical consequences of choices made by our forebears and have inherited their condition both in body and in soul.

 

[fhansen]

Are we (all of humanity) paying for the sins of Adam and Eve? If so, I don’t quite understand. Why are we paying for someone else’s mistake? I mean we’re talking about a mistake that has ultimately caused massive amounts of suffering to countless generations. I have this sin nature due to simply being born and I stand in judgement cause of it. I wish we could’ve all been able to vote on a better representative of mankind other than Adam and Eve considering all that was at stake. Can someone explain this to me in terms that make sense? I’m looking into Catholicism but I’ve got some issues here and there that I want to make sure I understand first. Thank you.

The basic message of the Fall of man is that man needs God-in order to have life and life abundantly, peace, harmony, happiness. Man needs *communion *with God, but Adam forsook that communion, seeking his happiness and fulfillment apart from Him. God saw fit that all humanity, Adam & his descendants, should spend time effectively away from Him, in this autonomy and exile that Adam opted for. We’re here to learn from this that such autonomy is unhealthy, unproductive, evil in the end. Man was made for communion with God. He’s working to help us reverse Adam’s decision and rebellion within ourselves. Until then, without Him, we’re lost.

We don’t have a “sin nature”. We just have this graceless state of separation from the only One from Whom our righteousness/holiness comes. Without Him, chaos and injustice reign to one degree or another within and around ourselves. To the extent that *we *continue to sin, we carry on the family tradition that Adam initiated, showing that, like him, we still prefer our way to God’s way-we may not even want to know about His way, at least until we’ve become jaded by the world’s ways and values. But he’s never abandoned us. God’s been working to turn our hearts back to Him ever since that original sin.

 

[fred_conty]

Are we (all of humanity) paying for the sins of Adam and Eve? If so, I don’t quite understand. Why are we paying for someone else’s mistake? I mean we’re talking about a mistake that has ultimately caused massive amounts of suffering to countless generations. I have this sin nature due to simply being born and I stand in judgement cause of it. I wish we could’ve all been able to vote on a better representative of mankind other than Adam and Eve considering all that was at stake. Can someone explain this to me in terms that make sense? I’m looking into Catholicism but I’ve got some issues here and there that I want to make sure I understand first. Thank you.

This isn’t just a Catholic thing, but a christian thing. I would guess that the majority of christianity believes in this teaching.

God revealed this to us for a reason, and of course it wasn’t with the idea of making us upset. But to explain why we need a saviour to save us from all of this nonsense the world has made and taught us. It is the very heart of why Christ came into the world, and how God has prepared us for the reception of his Son. So by this teaching we know who Jesus is and why he was needed, and the biggest benefit of all is to experience the all giving love of God for us. When we give this sufficient thought, this really is so much bigger than original sin. That God became us, a man, out of love for us. It may have never happened if original sin had not ocurred.

As far as the rest of the woes of this world, we need to leave it in the loving hands of God and do what we can just as Jesus, our brother, did what he could.

 

[clem456]

The basic message of the Fall of man is that man needs God-in order to have life and life abundantly, peace, harmony, happiness. Man needs *communion *with God, but Adam forsook that communion, seeking his happiness and fulfillment apart from Him. God saw fit that all humanity, Adam & his descendants, should spend time effectively away from Him, in this autonomy and exile that Adam opted for. We’re here to learn from this that such autonomy is unhealthy, unproductive, evil in the end. Man was made for communion with God. He’s working to help us reverse Adam’s decision and rebellion within ourselves. Until then, without Him, we’re lost.

We don’t have a “sin nature”. We just have this graceless state of separation from the only One from Whom our righteousness/holiness comes. Without Him, chaos and injustice reign to one degree or another within and around ourselves. To the extent that *we *continue to sin, we carry on the family tradition that Adam initiated, showing that, like him, we still prefer our way to God’s way-we may not even want to know about His way, at least until we’ve become jaded by the world’s ways and values. But he’s never abandoned us. God’s been working to turn our hearts back to Him ever since that original sin.

Christianity is difficult to comprehend without this idea of communion. It seems to me this is the biggest stumbling block when people do not understand original sin. How can we be affected by original sin, which we did not “commit” by our own action?

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

We are one in Christ. Sin is not exclusively personal, despite the fact that we are personally responsible for our sins. Sin affects the communion. It works to destroy it.
The flip side of this coin is the Good News that Christ came to restore communion and can do it, because…we are all related in Him.

412 But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning? St. Leo the Great responds, "Christ’s inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon’s envy had taken away."307 And St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, "There is nothing to prevent human nature’s being raised up to something greater, even after sin; God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good. Thus St. Paul says, ‘Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more’; and the Exsultet sings, ‘O happy fault,. . . which gained **for us **so great a Redeemer!’"308

 

[TxGodfollower]

Are we (all of humanity) paying for the sins of Adam and Eve? If so, I don’t quite understand. Why are we paying for someone else’s mistake? I mean we’re talking about a mistake that has ultimately caused massive amounts of suffering to countless generations. I have this sin nature due to simply being born and I stand in judgement cause of it. I wish we could’ve all been able to vote on a better representative of mankind other than Adam and Eve considering all that was at stake. Can someone explain this to me in terms that make sense? I’m looking into Catholicism but I’ve got some issues here and there that I want to make sure I understand first. Thank you.

Welcome to CAF, Fraggle. The way I see it is there was a fundamental change in Adam and Eve when they ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Something more basic than DNA was altered. In James, there is a verse that says to sin, someone has to know what is right (James 4:17). That verse leads me to belief that the first sin of man was in Genesis 3:12 when Adam passes the blame, not only to Eve but God Himself (the woman THAT YOU GAVE me). Right there, Adam knew what the right thing to do was, but it was easier to blame Eve and God. Adam, knowing Good and Evil, choose evil.

I understand your thinking (hope I got this right): “I get how the knowledge of Good and Evil passed down, but they are the ones that messed up. I should get my own fresh start, with a clean slate.” Do I have that right?

I’d encourage you to read a bit farther in Genesis. In Genesis 4, its pretty clear that Adam, Eve, and their children still had regular interactions with God. Even after choosing evil, God was still there, faithful. This is furthered in Cain’s punishment for killing Able. Yeah, Eden was a great place, but still being near God, I’d still think that would be pretty cool. But being banished from God’s face, forever. Wow…

Each and every generation that comes after Adam and Eve had a choice; they all choose to sin. I haven’t studied original sin much, but if you consider the track record humanity has had, there haven’t been many holy and righteous people by their own actions, and even fewer perfect people. I need a savior just for the decisions I have made, without even bringing Adam and Eve into the picture.

…Remind me to have a little talk with Adam and Eve if I ever make it to heaven.

I’m sure they have many people asking them similar questions. Personally, I want to know why they didn’t burn the tree down and eliminate the temptation.

I hope to meet you there Fraggle. I am glad God has brought you down this path towards him. He knows that we’ll have questions and doubts, but He loves us and died for us anyway. His grace is offered to you and me, even without us having to know everything and accept every doctrine. “That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.” Romans 10:9.

God Bless.

 

[catholic1seeks]

I sent this to the OP in a private message, but I thought I’d share it here as well:

We humans are not paying for anything Adam and Eve did. We are not positively punished for what our first parents did, in the sense that God somehow added a bunch of punishments to our nature. Sometimes the Fall is compared to Pandora’s Box. But it’s not actually like that.

To get a hint at this “punishment,” realize that church teaching is that only mortal sin can “send” someone to hell. That is, only a free choice against God and His love will lead to punishment. So babies, if they die before they are saved, will not go to hell.

Our first parents were “created” in union with God, in a state of grace, but this was not owed to them. It was grace . And any extra abilities they had, which traditionally in Catholicism includes their inability to suffer or die (at least as we do today), were also extra gifts. Original Sin did not bring about tornadoes, hurricanes, animals eating animals, thorns, and all the rest. These are natural consequences of the finite world we were created in.

When our first parents sinned, grace naturally fled their souls, and they forfeited the extra gifts given by God. This included the gift of integrity, which was not owed to human nature. Adam and Eve originally had their bodies, souls, passions, intellect, will, integrated together. They had mastery over their actions.

So in a sense, the Fall/Original Sin left humanity in a place where it would have been naturally, had God not given special gifts to Adam and Eve.​

 

[Louman127]

I sent this to the OP in a private message, but I thought I’d share it here as well:

We humans are not paying for anything Adam and Eve did. We are not positively punished for what our first parents did, in the sense that God somehow added a bunch of punishments to our nature. Sometimes the Fall is compared to Pandora’s Box. But it’s not actually like that.

To get a hint at this “punishment,” realize that church teaching is that only mortal sin can “send” someone to hell. That is, only a free choice against God and His love will lead to punishment. So babies, if they die before they are saved, will not go to hell.

Our first parents were “created” in union with God, in a state of grace, but this was not owed to them. It was grace . And any extra abilities they had, which traditionally in Catholicism includes their inability to suffer or die (at least as we do today), were also extra gifts. Original Sin did not bring about tornadoes, hurricanes, animals eating animals, thorns, and all the rest. These are natural consequences of the finite world we were created in.

When our first parents sinned, grace naturally fled their souls, and they forfeited the extra gifts given by God. This included the gift of integrity, which was not owed to human nature. Adam and Eve originally had their bodies, souls, passions, intellect, will, integrated together. They had mastery over their actions.

So in a sense, the Fall/Original Sin left humanity in a place where it would have been naturally, had God not given special gifts to Adam and Eve.​

Hey just to clear things up a bit. We have to be careful with the language we use so it conforms to Catholic doctrine correctly. A mortal sin isn’t the only way to go to hell. Unbaptized people in the state of original sin also do. However, the church basically says to not worry about the salvation of lets say aborted babies because although they have been killed in original sin, in a way known only to God, there is possible salvation for them. But officially the Church says it is unkown exactly what happens. But lets look at Padre Pio for a second. One time he was hearing confession and Saint Pio said to the person confessing that the baby she aborted would have been a great Pope. Now, I think it could stand to reason that a man who would’ve been completely loyal to Christ but was not allowed to… Well… like I said I don’t think there’s anything to worry about. I’m sure he’d be taken care of because he was judged in front of a merciful just judge, Jesus. We are bound by the sacraments but God is not.

Also to say tornadoes, disasters, illness, famine, sufferings, etc. is due to us living in a finite world is also inaccurate. These are effects of sin. Storms and what not are called “physical evils”. They are not a result of living in a finite world. They are the cause of death entering the universe due to our sin. So our nature and the physical world has a certain degree of deprivation of God. Where God is not there is no life. Where God is there is life. We have mixture of this here on earth. So we have mixed happiness in the midst of suffering as well. It is neither fully good on earth nor fully evil.

And to say that the fall put us in our natural state/nature is also not accurate. The way God originally created us (Adam and Eve) was perfect. Which was our true nature. Now, due to sin, we have a disordered natural state. Our original natural state was not to die or suffer at all. Our sin didn’t simply rid us of “extra gifts”. It defiled our actual true nature. It severed us from God.

God is love. God is life. To separate oneself from God incurs death by default. God was merciful because our body is in a dying state due to sin (so He was true by telling us we would die if we ate of the tree, so we do actully die physically) but our spirit has been lifted back up because of Christ. If our spirit is in Christ He shall raise our body back up to our spirit at the last day.

Respectfully,

Louman

 

[catholic1seeks]

Hey just to clear things up a bit. We have to be careful with the language we use so it conforms to Catholic doctrine correctly. A mortal sin isn’t the only way to go to hell. Unbaptized people in the state of original sin also do. However, the church basically says to not worry about the salvation of lets say aborted babies because although they have been killed in original sin, in a way known only to God, there is possible salvation for them. But officially the Church says it is unkown exactly what happens. But lets look at Padre Pio for a second. One time he was hearing confession and Saint Pio said to the person confessing that the baby she aborted would have been a great Pope. Now, I think it could stand to reason that a man who would’ve been completely loyal to Christ but was not allowed to… Well… like I said I don’t think there’s anything to worry about. I’m sure he’d be taken care of because he was judged in front of a merciful just judge, Jesus. We are bound by the sacraments but God is not.

Also to say tornadoes, disasters, illness, famine, sufferings, etc. is due to us living in a finite world is also inaccurate. These are effects of sin. Storms and what not are called “physical evils”. They are not a result of living in a finite world. They are the cause of death entering the universe due to our sin. So our nature and the physical world has a certain degree of deprivation of God. Where God is not there is no life. Where God is there is life. We have mixture of this here on earth. So we have mixed happiness in the midst of suffering as well. It is neither fully good on earth nor fully evil.

And to say that the fall put us in our natural state/nature is also not accurate. The way God originally created us (Adam and Eve) was perfect. Which was our true nature. Now, due to sin, we have a disordered natural state. Our original natural state was not to die or suffer at all. Our sin didn’t simply rid us of “extra gifts”. It defiled our actual true nature. It severed us from God.

God is love. God is life. To separate oneself from God incurs death by default. God was merciful because our body is in a dying state due to sin (so He was true by telling us we would die if we ate of the tree, so we do actully die physically) but our spirit has been lifted back up because of Christ. If our spirit is in Christ He shall raise our body back up to our spirit at the last day.

Respectfully,

Louman

No one goes to the hell of the damned unless they so choose:

Catechism #1037: God predestines no one to go to hell;for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end.

The “hell” that persons go to if they only die with original sin has been understood as a place without the beatific vision of God; but it is still a place of natural happiness. It has been called “Limbo” in the past, especially for those children who are unbaptized. But even now, theological development has led to the understanding that those who die in original sin only may be in Heaven. Think of the document released by the Vatican on unbaptized babies and the hope we can have for them.

On natural evils:
From science alone, we know that natural evils existed from the beginning of our world. Animals have always eaten animals; animals have nerves; thorns, poison ivy, biting spiders, have all evolved; hurricanes and earthquakes are due to basic physical properties in a creation with physical laws. It is simply not Catholic teaching that one has to believe natural evils flowed from the Fall. The human person’s relationship with the world around him changed for the worse.

The Catechism says:

But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better.But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection. CCC #310

 

[Louman127]

No one goes to the hell of the damned unless they so choose:

The “hell” that persons go to if they only die with original sin has been understood as a place without the beatific vision of God; but it is still a place of natural happiness. It has been called “Limbo” in the past, especially for those children who are unbaptized. But even now, theological development has led to the understanding that those who die in original sin only may be in Heaven. Think of the document released by the Vatican on unbaptized babies and the hope we can have for them.

On natural evils:
From science alone, we know that natural evils existed from the beginning of our world. Animals have always eaten animals; animals have nerves; thorns, poison ivy, biting spiders, have all evolved; hurricanes and earthquakes are due to basic physical properties in a creation with physical laws. It is simply not Catholic teaching that one has to believe natural evils flowed from the Fall. The human person’s relationship with the world around him changed for the worse.

The Catechism says:

​

Sorry. I also was errored a bit in my articulation as well and was a bit clouded so I didn’t understand some of your articulations correctly. I was errored in the area on natural evils. I again was thinking along different lines such as excruciating suffering and death. I should’ve known since you put that part in parenthesis.

No one goes to hell unless they choose to is correct. That is why the baby analogy is good to use. But again looking at the aborted baby analogy the church does not say “officially” they go to one place or another (Heaven, hell, sheol, etc.) One has to deduce what may happen is that God gives the creature a grace to either accept or deny in some way or another. Thus, granting the possibility of that person to be in Heaven. What I’m talking about is lets say someone who hasn’t been baptized and refuses to get baptized then of coarse they still will be judged by a merciful judge but they run the risk of damnation because that’s a formula, objectively speaking, to go to hell.

“But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better.But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists alsophysical evilas long as creation has not reached perfection.” CCC #310

And what this appears to be referring to is. Why didn’t God create a world that evil could not exist in? Or in other words why weren’t we already made to complete perfection? God didn’t create it perfected but He also did not create it with any evil in it as well. Because then that would imply that God created evil. Rather we brought about evil through sin (1st the angels who turned to demons, 2nd mans original sin) On the contrary it says on the rest of that page in the Catechism that God created everything GOOD and ORDERED and that man was to subdue the world and have dominion over it. The way it sounded in your articulation was that our disorded nature was normal simply missing our extra gifts. Just because we are “journeying” through this world doesn’t mean we were meant to suffer as in deadly horrible suffering and death. We were meant to grow without evil. Now as to storms existing and such. Sure possibly. But I’m talking about straight up disasters. Tornadoes sweeping up peoples homes and their lives type of thing. Those things if we were to go through them would not have entailed humans dying. We would withstand everything immortaly including storms. But now after the fall of man it does involve dying. Now for animals dying. Sure that’s possible. That’s what it appears like. But I’m mainly talking about man.

 

[grannymh]

And what this appears to be referring to is. Why didn’t God create a world that evil could not exist in? Or in other words why weren’t we already made to complete perfection?

Above in this thread, there are some excellent explanations regarding Original Sin.
Thank you.

Yet, when I read “complete perfection” I am always curious as to what consists “complete perfection.” Please, what is “complete perfection?” In real time?

 

[grannymh]

. Why didn’t God create a world that evil could not exist in? Or in other words why weren’t we already made to complete perfection?

In this thread, there are some excellent explanations regarding Original Sin.
Thank you.

Yet, when I read “complete perfection” I am always curious as to what consists “complete perfection” for the founder of humankind.

Please, what is meant by “complete perfection?” At the dawn of human history?

 

[fhansen]

---

Sorry. I also was errored a bit in my articulation as well and was a bit clouded so I didn’t understand some of your articulations correctly. I was errored in the area on natural evils. I again was thinking along different lines such as excruciating suffering and death. I should’ve known since you put that part in parenthesis.

No one goes to hell unless they choose to is correct. That is why the baby analogy is good to use. But again looking at the aborted baby analogy the church does not say “officially” they go to one place or another (Heaven, hell, sheol, etc.) One has to deduce what may happen is that God gives the creature a grace to either accept or deny in some way or another. Thus, granting the possibility of that person to be in Heaven. What I’m talking about is lets say someone who hasn’t been baptized and refuses to get baptized then of coarse they still will be judged by a merciful judge but they run the risk of damnation because that’s a formula, objectively speaking, to go to hell.

“But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better.But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists alsophysical evilas long as creation has not reached perfection.” CCC #310

And what this appears to be referring to is. Why didn’t God create a world that evil could not exist in? Or in other words why weren’t we already made to complete perfection? God didn’t create it perfected but He also did not create it with any evil in it as well. Because then that would imply that God created evil. Rather we brought about evil through sin (1st the angels who turned to demons, 2nd mans original sin) On the contrary it says on the rest of that page in the Catechism that God created everything GOOD and ORDERED and that man was to subdue the world and have dominion over it. The way it sounded in your articulation was that our disorded nature was normal simply missing our extra gifts. Just because we are “journeying” through this world doesn’t mean we were meant to suffer as in deadly horrible suffering and death. We were meant to grow without evil. Now as to storms existing and such. Sure possibly. But I’m talking about straight up disasters. Tornadoes sweeping up peoples homes and their lives type of thing. Those things if we were to go through them would not have entailed humans dying. We would withstand everything immortaly including storms. But now after the fall of man it does involve dying. Now for animals dying. Sure that’s possible. That’s what it appears like. But I’m mainly talking about man.

All men die, whether by natural disasters, old age, or some other means. Death defines and radically emphasizes our finiteness, as do all the evils to one degree or another that we may suffer here, and makes us ultimately in need of and dependent on “The Infinite”, that which transcends ourselves and the world we live in.

Death places a boundary upon us, unknown in Eden, a timeframe which has the effect, whether we’re even conscious of it or not, of placing an onus upon us to “get it right”, while also compelling us to “walk by faith” in regards to our eternal destiny. We tend to be haughty when feeling too secure and yet even this life still affords room for obstinate unfaithfulness to remain, as we prefer, in the face of the evils and obvious limitations we experience, unreasonable as that obstinacy may be. Here we’re asked to choose between the good and evil, life and death, that we’ll all experience both spiritually and physically.
**
1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.”26 (30)

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.27**

 

[Louman127]

In this thread, there are some excellent explanations regarding Original Sin.
Thank you.

Yet, when I read “complete perfection” I am always curious as to what consists “complete perfection” for the founder of humankind.

Please, what is meant by “complete perfection?” At the dawn of human history?

While God Almighty is infinite and is without measure He made Himself visible to man and became flesh in the Flesh of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the second Divine person of the Blessed Trinity. We are finite creatures so to be perfect is to mirror Jesus Christ in every way of living ones own life.

Now, what was the goal of perfection of Adam and Eve’s day?

God alone only knows that. There are so many variables and what if’s. Maybe if Adam and Eve didn’t eat the fruit that would have been the perfect reaction to the serpent. But we reacted imperfectly. There may have been something special for us had they rejected the serpents temptation because they would have literally rejected the devil who is now evil and imperfect by his own choice. But we don’t know. One can only speculate. God alone only knows what our perfect state was to become in our original Justice. I’m sure God knows both “timelines” so to speak. The one we are in now and the one that was without original sin. I’m sure He knows what would have happened to all if Adam and Eve would had obeyed.

But now we know the goal is to be like Jesus. Our goal is to be like God by acting as He did when He became flesh. Adopt His thought processes since they are perfect. Look at ones self in a constant objective manner with discipline and constantly critiquing ones actions relentlessly without deceiving ones own self and excusing sinful behavior. And that involves constant humility and constantly saying sorry to God for our failures even on small things.

 

[grannymh]

While God Almighty is infinite and is without measure He made Himself visible to man and became flesh in the Flesh of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the second Divine person of the Blessed Trinity. We are finite creatures so to be perfect is to mirror Jesus Christ in every way of living ones own life.

Now, what was the goal of perfection of Adam and Eve’s day?

Please accept my sincere apology. I am traveling for Thanksgiving so my full reply will be a lot later.

The “goal of perfection of Adam and Eve’s day” is clearly stated by the Divine Revelation flowing from the first three chapters of Genesis. Obviously, Divine Revelation continued …

I do not mean to be rude, but the fact is that variables of Divine Revelation can be a tad wishful thinking. Proper explanations of Divine Revelation have occurred over the centuries. (CCC 66.)

It is common knowledge that “Original Sin” is rather uncomfortable. Paragraph 404 of the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, is very interesting. However, one cannot take CCC 404 out of context. To be fair to God, one should start with CCC 355 and continue reading to CCC 421. CCC 422 begins with “The Good News: God has sent His Son.” More essential information is in CCC 1730-1732.

May everyone have a wonderful Thanksgiving.

Blessings,
granny

 

[fhansen]

In this thread, there are some excellent explanations regarding Original Sin.
Thank you.

Yet, when I read “complete perfection” I am always curious as to what consists “complete perfection” for the founder of humankind.

Please, what is meant by “complete perfection?” At the dawn of human history?

IMO, one thing that would be involved in “complete perfection” would be wills that are completely in union or aligned with Gods will. IOW, a mark of perfection would be a man having freely chosen to turn fully to God, rather than away from Him to any degree. Another way of saying this is that a perfected being would love God with his whole heart, soul, mind, and strentgh.