Original Sin

[susanlo]

What does your religion/denomination teach about Original Sin? I didn’t know that Christians held such different views on this until recently, and I am confused about all of the differences between the beliefs. If you are a Christian, how does this belief affect your understanding of baptism? What are the beliefs of Original Sin by other religions that read Genesis?

 

[jane_doe]

What does your religion/denomination teach about Original Sin? I didn’t know that Christians held such different views on this until recently, and I am confused about all of the differences between the beliefs. If you are a Christian, how does this belief affect your understanding of baptism? What are the beliefs of Original Sin by other religions that read Genesis?

LDS here.

You (and everyone else alive today) hold ZERO guilt for what Adam did and shall not be punished for it in any way. A newborn baby is a PERFECT spirit child of God, whom is completely without blemish, and has zero reason to be baptized.

That being said, because of Adam’s actions there is sin and troubles in the world. As we grow up, each of us will face them and inevitably sin ourselves.

Baptism is us taking upon the name of Christ, and having our sins washed away in His blood. Because baptism is a promise we make with God, person must be of age and accountability before they can make that promise and be baptized.

Infants have no need to be baptized (no sin) and cannot be baptized (not of accountable age).

 

[Della]

Doing a search of “original sin” in the Catechism, I found 4 pages of quotes: ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=original+sin&xsubmit=Search&s=SS.

Basically, original sin is what deprived us of full communion with God. When Adam and Eve sinned their nature became corrupted, their intellect darkened, and their will weakened. Parents cannot pass onto their children what they don’t have. Therefore all of us are born with the same deprivations. We cannot become holy on our own, we cannot fully grasp what we ought to know of God, and we cannot always do what we know is right. Baptism restores God’s grace, but our wounded nature remains. Baptism imparts saving grace which allows us, if we remain true to our baptismal vows, to remain in and grow in God’s grace. This applies whether made our vows were made by our parents when we were infants or by us when we reached the age of accountability.

 

[Marie5890]

Della did a good job at pointing out what “Original sin” means to Catholics. Somewhere, that anti-Catholic sentiment that is age old, has distorted it to mean that we are born sinful. We are not, and Catholic teaching doesn’t teach that we are. We are, however, born with a fallen nature, do to the fall of our ancestral parents.

It’s why I prefer the Orthodox wording of “ancestral sin” over “original sin”.

Children are born innocent, but with fallen natures, thus the importance of infant baptism

 

[jinglebelle]

Perhaps,this is why parents won’t present their children to any Christian church.He is responsible for the creation of absolutely everthing but when the first thing goes wrong oh its the created creature’s fault

 

[arthra]

What does your religion/denomination teach about Original Sin? I didn’t know that Christians held such different views on this until recently, and I am confused about all of the differences between the beliefs. If you are a Christian, how does this belief affect your understanding of baptism? What are the beliefs of Original Sin by other religions that read Genesis?

Baha’is generally do not accept the doctrine of “original sin”. as to the story in Genesis of Adam and Eve we feel this may be a spiritual allegory but not a basis to accept original sin or that infants are born with a sin nature and such.

 

[susanlo]

Doing a search of “original sin” in the Catechism, I found 4 pages of quotes: ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=original+sin&xsubmit=Search&s=SS.

Basically, original sin is what deprived us of full communion with God. When Adam and Eve sinned their nature became corrupted, their intellect darkened, and their will weakened. Parents cannot pass onto their children what they don’t have. Therefore all of us are born with the same deprivations. We cannot become holy on our own, we cannot fully grasp what we ought to know of God, and we cannot always do what we know is right. Baptism restores God’s grace, but our wounded nature remains. Baptism imparts saving grace which allows us, if we remain true to our baptismal vows, to remain in and grow in God’s grace. This applies whether made our vows were made by our parents when we were infants or by us when we reached the age of accountability.

Della did a good job at pointing out what “Original sin” means to Catholics. Somewhere, that anti-Catholic sentiment that is age old, has distorted it to mean that we are born sinful. We are not, and Catholic teaching doesn’t teach that we are. We are, however, born with a fallen nature, do to the fall of our ancestral parents.

It’s why I prefer the Orthodox wording of “ancestral sin” over “original sin”.

Children are born innocent, but with fallen natures, thus the importance of infant baptism

I think it confuses me because I think the consequences of Genesis 3 and a human sinful nature both remain after baptism. If newborns are sinless as well as free of guilt from original sin, and after baptism they will still live in a fallen and sinful world with a capacity to choose sinful ways, what is being taken away in baptism? Or is it simply grace given to them and no washing away of sin that takes place? Is it the belief that being baptized will make one more likely to accept Christ later in life?

 

[Della]

I think it confuses me because I think the consequences of Genesis 3 and a human sinful nature both remain after baptism. If newborns are sinless as well as free of guilt from original sin, and after baptism they will still live in a fallen and sinful world with a capacity to choose sinful ways, what is being taken away in baptism?

It’s more that something has been restored in baptism–saving grace. What is removed is the stain of original sin that leads to spiritual death. Without it there is no guarantee that an unbaptized person will be saved upon death. The Church teaches that deceased unbaptized infants are in God’s merciful hands. None of us can be saved without God’s grace. Baptism is the means by which Christ restores that grace by reason of his redemptive death. Our woundedness remains, but God’s grace, if we avail ourselves of it, makes it possible for us to live without sin–at least without mortal sins, no matter how sinful the world is. It was sinful in Jesus’ day and it’s just as sinful now. If it was possible for believers to live in God’s grace then, it’s possible for us to do so now, as well.

Or is it simply grace given to them and no washing away of sin that takes place? Is it the belief that being baptized will make one more likely to accept Christ later in life?

In baptism one has "accepted "Christ. One is infused with God’s grace at baptism. One may have an awakening to faith later in life–to the knowledge of what it all means and to the realization that God loves us so we ought to love him and serve him, which is why ongoing religious education and partaking of the sacraments (which bestow God’s graces on us) is so important. Baptism enables people to come to this realization, unless they are incapable of doing that. Those who cannot make any conscious decisions are in Christ due to their baptism. It means they will be saved even though they cannot decide anything for themselves.

 

[susanlo]

It’s more that something has been restored in baptism–saving grace. What is removed is the stain of original sin that leads to spiritual death. Without it there is no guarantee that an unbaptized person will be saved upon death. The Church teaches that deceased unbaptized infants are in God’s merciful hands. None of us can be saved without God’s grace. Baptism is the means by which Christ restores that grace by reason of his redemptive death. Our woundedness remains, but God’s grace, if we avail ourselves of it, makes it possible for us to live without sin–at least without mortal sins, no matter how sinful the world is. It was sinful in Jesus’ day and it’s just as sinful now. If it was possible for believers to live in God’s grace then, it’s possible for us to do so now, as well.

In baptism one has "accepted "Christ. One is infused with God’s grace at baptism. One may have an awakening to faith later in life–to the knowledge of what it all means and to the realization that God loves us so we ought to love him and serve him, which is why ongoing religious education and partaking of the sacraments (which bestow God’s graces on us) is so important. Baptism enables people to come to this realization, unless they are incapable of doing that. Those who cannot make any conscious decisions are in Christ due to their baptism. It means they will be saved even though they cannot decide anything for themselves.

When an infant is baptized, they aren’t forgiven any personal sins because they are innocent of personal sin. After baptism they still have a sin tendency and still live in a fallen and broken world with the “curses” of Genesis 3 as a result of Original Sin. But it sounds like there is another aspect. They are given graces and “accepted” by Christ and are “saved”? Is that a correct understanding? I wonder if this is the same belief as other churches that baptize infants.

So is there a thought that if two infants die, but only one was baptized, that the two infants’ eternal fate might be different? What about babies that die before birth?

 

[susanlo]

Della did a good job at pointing out what “Original sin” means to Catholics. Somewhere, that anti-Catholic sentiment that is age old, has distorted it to mean that we are born sinful. We are not, and Catholic teaching doesn’t teach that we are. We are, however, born with a fallen nature, do to the fall of our ancestral parents.

It’s why I prefer the Orthodox wording of “ancestral sin” over “original sin”.

Children are born innocent, but with fallen natures, thus the importance of infant baptism

I think the fact that an infant needs to be “forgiven” for Original Sin may make people feel that this means that infants are born guilty. I have a hard time understanding “forgiving” someone who is “innocent.” I have a hard time understanding Original Sin in general.

“1279 The fruit of Baptism, or baptismal grace, is a rich reality that includes **forgiveness of original sin **and all personal sins, birth into the new life by which man becomes an adoptive son of the Father, a member of Christ and a temple of the Holy Spirit. By this very fact the person baptized is incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ, and made a sharer in the priesthood of Christ.” - scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1279.htm

 

[drac16]

We muslims don’t believe in Original Sin. We believe that when Adam and Eve sinned [peace be upon them], they repented and God forgave them. There’s a sense in which you could say that we believe in Original Forgiveness.

 

[Marie5890]

We muslims don’t believe in Original Sin. We believe that when Adam and Eve sinned [peace be upon them], they repented and God forgave them. There’s a sense in which you could say that we believe in Original Forgiveness.

I didn’t know that about Islam! Thanks !

 

[Marie5890]

When an infant is baptized, they aren’t forgiven any personal sins because they are innocent of personal sin. After baptism they still have a sin tendency and still live in a fallen and broken world with the “curses” of Genesis 3 as a result of Original Sin. But it sounds like there is another aspect. They are given graces and “accepted” by Christ and are “saved”? Is that a correct understanding? I wonder if this is the same belief as other churches that baptize infants.

So is there a thought that if two infants die, but only one was baptized, that the two infants’ eternal fate might be different? What about babies that die before birth?

Susan, if you look back at Della’s post #8, she does explain that, too.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

LDS here.

You (and everyone else alive today) hold ZERO guilt for what Adam did and shall not be punished for it in any way. A newborn baby is a PERFECT spirit child of God, whom is completely without blemish, and has zero reason to be baptized.

That being said, because of Adam’s actions there is sin and troubles in the world. As we grow up, each of us will face them and inevitably sin ourselves.

Baptism is us taking upon the name of Christ, and having our sins washed away in His blood. Because baptism is a promise we make with God, person must be of age and accountability before they can make that promise and be baptized.

Infants have no need to be baptized (no sin) and cannot be baptized (not of accountable age).

Hi Jane.

May I ask what is the accountability age for LDS, and who determined that? And by what method or formula was it determined?

Pax

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I think the fact that an infant needs to be “forgiven” for Original Sin may make people feel that this means that infants are born guilty. I have a hard time understanding “forgiving” someone who is “innocent.” I have a hard time understanding Original Sin in general.

“1279 The fruit of Baptism, or baptismal grace, is a rich reality that includes **forgiveness of original sin **and all personal sins, birth into the new life by which man becomes an adoptive son of the Father, a member of Christ and a temple of the Holy Spirit. By this very fact the person baptized is incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ, and made a sharer in the priesthood of Christ.” - scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1279.htm

Hi Susan.

The unchanging God of the Old Testament punished generation after generation for sins of the ancestors.

So I’m not sure why any Christians would see a problem with this concept. I’m hoping a Orthodox Christian chimes in because i know they don’t believe in it.

 

[JonNC]

What does your religion/denomination teach about Original Sin? I didn’t know that Christians held such different views on this until recently, and I am confused about all of the differences between the beliefs. If you are a Christian, how does this belief affect your understanding of baptism? What are the beliefs of Original Sin by other religions that read Genesis?

Lutheranism, From the Augsburg Confession

** Article II: Of Original Sin.**

1] Also they teach that since the fall of Adam all men begotten in the natural way are born with sin, that is, without the fear of God, without trust in God, and with 2] concupiscence; and that this disease, or vice of origin, is truly sin, even now condemning and bringing eternal death upon those not born again through Baptism and the Holy Ghost.

3] They condemn the Pelagians and others who deny that original depravity is sin, and who, to obscure the glory of Christ’s merit and benefits, argue that man can be justified before God by his own strength and reason.

Note: the term “they”, or “they teach” refers to the churches that signed on to the Augsburg Confession: “Our churches teach…”

Jon

 

[benhur]

I understand that for a long time you could not bury an unbaptized infant child in the church/local cemetery if not baptized. Anybody hear of this ? Made people scurry for the priest. I think midwives were finally granted the privilege of baptizing in emergency situations.

 

[Della]

When an infant is baptized, they aren’t forgiven any personal sins because they are innocent of personal sin. After baptism they still have a sin tendency and still live in a fallen and broken world with the “curses” of Genesis 3 as a result of Original Sin. But it sounds like there is another aspect. They are given graces and “accepted” by Christ and are “saved”? Is that a correct understanding? I wonder if this is the same belief as other churches that baptize infants.

Some churches hold to this and others don’t. The Catholic Church recognizes most Protestant baptisms (indeed such baptisms unite those so baptized to the Church, although not fully enough to receive the other sacraments of the Church except marriage). The Church does not recognize those non-Catholic baptisms that are not done with the proper rite and intention.

So is there a thought that if two infants die, but only one was baptized, that the two infants’ eternal fate might be different? What about babies that die before birth?

I believe I answered this question. But it’s the same for babies who die before birth. Having said that anyone may baptize with water so if the opportunity arises, the infant should be baptized. After all, we don’t know precisely when the soul leaves the body. Besides this there are other forms of baptism that may apply–baptism of desire and baptism of blood. Only God would know if either applied to an infant who dies before birth (as in the case of abortion). Knowing that God is merciful and just, we give all such infants into God’s loving arms. He desires that all be saved, and he is able to operate outside the sacraments as he pleases, so we don’t have to believe that God is mere a stickler for rules. But he does expect us to do our part if we are able.

 

[Della]

I understand that for a long time you could not bury an unbaptized infant child in the church/local cemetery if not baptized. Anybody hear of this ? Made people scurry for the priest. I think midwives were finally granted the privilege of baptizing in emergency situations.

I can’t answer the first part of your question, but anyone may baptize another. I don’t believe that any dispensation was ever needed in emergency situations. However, baptisms ought to be done by a proper minister of the Church, if possible. Parents should know that their child is to be baptized. No one should take it upon himself to baptize an infant without his parents permission. Still, such a baptism would be valid although illicitly done.

 

[jane_doe]

Hi Jane.

May I ask what is the accountability age for LDS, and who determined that? And by what method or formula was it determined?

Pax

At least of age 8, determined by divine revelation from God (LDS believe in continuing revelation and an open cannon).

For individuals with developmental delays/disabilities it’s treated on a case by case basis. For a person who is severely mentally disabled (for example they have the development level of a 4 year old even in adulthood) then there is no need for them to be baptized even in adulthood.