Original Sin

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Are you saying Jesus was a sinner? Or that He wasn’t a man? Sounds like an exception to me.
David,

Get real man. Who believes Jesus sinned? If you read my full post. I said that Paul tells us that Jesus was the only person to walk the earth and not sin. He’s not an exception. He’s the only exception. Because he was an exceptional Man.

I’m merely making the point that the Bible does not confirm at all that Mary was not a sinner. If anything it goes to the contrary. We all sin and fall short. Of Jesus that is. Do you really believe that Mary did not sin when she was growing up? She had no clue she would be chosen to be the mother of Jesus. She was chosen because she was from the house of David. Given the way the Romans treated people back then I’m sure she had some nasty thoughts in her head.

If Mary didn’t sin why did she identify Jesus as her savior? Non-sinners don’t need a savior.

Luke 1:46 And Mary said,
“My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior
 
Get real man. Who believes Jesus sinned?
Not me.
If you read my full post. I said that Paul tells us that Jesus was the only person to walk the earth and not sin. He’s not an exception. He’s the only exception. Because he was an exceptional Man.
You said there were “no exceptions”, did you not?
I’m merely making the point that the Bible does not confirm at all that Mary was not a sinner. If anything it goes to the contrary. We all sin and fall short. Of Jesus that is. Do you really believe that Mary did not sin when she was growing up?
Yes!!
She had no clue she would be chosen to be the mother of Jesus.
How do you know this? I believe that as she matured she had clear signs of the calling God put on her. Just like each us do.
She was chosen because she was from the house of David. Given the way the Romans treated people back then I’m sure she had some nasty thoughts in her head.
Not a chance. See above.
 
<<If Mary didn’t sin why did she identify Jesus as her savior? Non-sinners don’t need a savior.>>

Yes, Mary needed a Saviour like all of us, only she was redeemed in advance, set apart for God’s purpose.

That means that at the first moment of her conception in her mother’s womb she was full of grace, and she maintained and grew in that grace by God’s design.
 
Not me.

You said there were “no exceptions”, did you not?
Yes!!

How do you know this? I believe that as she matured she had clear signs of the calling God put on her. Just like each us do.

Not a chance. See above.
David,

Didn’t see your response. If you want to believe that Mary didn’t sin then obviously that’s your choice. With regard to exceptions don’t twist my words. Let’s just be very clear.

The Bible makes it very clear that Jesus never sinned. Paul tells us that he is the only person who walked the earth and not sin, no exceptions. No exceptions meaning no one else besides Jesus. Believing that Mary didn’t sin has nothing to do with getting to heaven. I think we just need to be careful about what we teach when there clearly is no documentation to support it. Somebody writing outside of the Bible doesn’t count for me. As I’ve said in previous posts, where the Bible is silent we need to be silent, where the Bible speaks we speak. And sometimes that can be hard becasue we know that there are some things in the Bible that just don’t make sense.

Here’s what I find most interesting about Mary. As great as she was, which I do believe by the way let’s take a look at what Jesus has to say about her. Jesus is given a perfect opportunity in Luke to praise Mary and instead look at what he says:

Luke 11:27 As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!” 28 But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

Why didn’t Jesus praise Mary right then and there to let people know how special she was. In other parts of the Gospels we get the inclination that Mary and Jesus brothers and sisters really didn’t understand what he was there to do.

Mark 3:20 Then he went home, and the crowd gathered again, so that they could not even eat. 21 And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for they were saying, “He is out of his mind.”

Mark 3:31 And his mother and his brothers came, and standing outside they sent to him and called him. 32 And a crowd was sitting around him, and they said to him, “Your mother and your brothers [2] are outside, seeking you.” 33 And he answered them, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” 34 And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”

Why did he say this? We don’t really know but we could speculate that maybe his family including Mary just didn’t get it yet.

David I will just say this. As a former Catholic please don’t believe something because the church teaches it to you. If you read scripture and come to your own conclusion that she couldn’t have ever sinned then great. You may be right. I believe she did. I also believed she had more children because scripture suggests it.

Matthew 1:24 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, 25 but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

Whenever the Bible mentions a man knowing his wife it’s usually associated with sexual contact.

Genesis 4:1 Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, “I have gotten [1] a man with the help of the Lord.” 2 And again, she bore his brother Abel.

I’ve become a student of the Bible and believe whole-heartedly that it is the Revelation of God. How else do you explain how it has survived? God meant for us to have a book so we could learn about Him and Jesus. The church should reinforce that and not add to it like the Catholic church does. God tells us in the Bible not to add or take away from it.

Peace.
 
I’ve become a student of the Bible and believe whole-heartedly that it is the Revelation of God. How else do you explain how it has survived?
It survived by having Jesus placing the Truth (God’s revelation) in the hands of the apostles and their successors to protect and preserve. If they hadn’t done that you and I would not have our bibles.
God meant for us to have a book so we could learn about Him and Jesus. The church should reinforce that and not add to it like the Catholic church does. God tells us in the Bible not to add or take away from it.
No he did not leave us a book to learn from. Can you cite me the passage in the bible that says that? He left us the Church to learn from.
 
Luke 11:27, where it says “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it,” is used by others who do not understand Mary’s privileges to prove that she was not made special by God.

To me that passage beautifully proves all I believe about Mary.
Jesus knows all about His Mother, and how she hears the word of God and keeps it!

She totally trusted and did not question the angel Gabriel, but submitted with total love and humility to the will of God.
 
Again, this Scripture was cited:

<<Mark 3:31 And his mother and his brothers came, and standing outside they sent
to him and called him. 32 And a crowd was sitting around him, and they said to
him, “Your mother and your brothers [2] are outside, seeking you.” 33 And he
answered them, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” 34 And looking about at
those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 For
whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”

Why did he say this? We don’t really know but we could speculate that maybe
his family including Mary just didn’t get it yet.

Jesus left us a Church with authority to correctly interpret Scripture that could be twisted by others.

If anybody “got it” (holiness) it definitely is our Blessed Mother!
 
David I will just say this. As a former Catholic please don’t believe something because the church teaches it to you. If you read scripture and come to your own conclusion that she couldn’t have ever sinned then great. You may be right. I believe she did. I also believed she had more children because scripture suggests it.
You appear to be making some very bold assumptions about how much I know about the Bible and what the Church teaches. I have been studying the Bible in instructor led classes for the past 7 years and have studied it sporadically on my own since 1972. I have come to accept the teachings of the Church as rational and reasonable. So pardon me if reject your false gospel.
 
inchrist101

Your post in quotes,

"Here’s what I find most interesting about Mary. As great as she
was, which I do believe by the way let’s take a look at what Jesus has to say about her. Jesus is given a perfect opportunity in Luke to praise Mary and instead look at what he says:

Luke 11:27 As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!” 28 But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

You miss the meaning of Jesus’s words because you fail to understand what He was communicating to his audience of that day. You also miss the woman saying “Blessed” she is living out a prophecy of scripture before it is ever penned. You on the other hand have yet to refer to Mary as “Blessed” which The Bible tells you to do.

Now the woman is praising the mother of Jesus because she was the mother according to the flesh. Thanks to her motherhood Jesus is the true son of man. Now Jesus does not try to distance himself from His motherhood in the flesh. He is trying to explain a deeper meaning. A meaning that is mysterious because it arises out of a bond with the spirit that comes from hearing and keeping God’s word. “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it.” Who is the first to hear the word of God and keep it? (Lk.1:38-45;2:19.51)

How many times have we not kept God’s word? Did The Blessed Mother have a bible to mine and to plumb the depths to “understand” God’s word? All she had is what she learned from her parents by way of the O.T. and we know how “easy” it is to know Christ from the O.T. especially now that we have a N.T. to guide us and to reflect on. You see my friend all Mary had was her faith and her obedience of faith and the reason She was perfect is because she had a spiritual bond so special that it makes my head hurt. That is something we should all strive for but it in no way diminishes the fact of her flesh bond with Him. Christ says at the Last Supper, “This Is My Body.” This Is My Blood." Then at the foot of the cross Mary The Mother of God can truly say to herself, This Is My Body This Is My Blood. They have a bond that can never be reproduced but that is our measuring stick. That is the meaning of the text you citied.

We can move on to the next objections if you can grasp this one first. Cheap apologetics around here will not work no matter how "well’ you “know” God’s word.

Peace,
David
 
It survived by having Jesus placing the Truth (God’s revelation) in the hands of the apostles and their successors to protect and preserve. If they hadn’t done that you and I would not have our bibles.

No he did not leave us a book to learn from. Can you cite me the passage in the bible that says that? He left us the Church to learn from.
David you are so right. We would not have our Bibles if it were not for people willing to give their lives. If we were supposed to learn from the Church then why did God give us the Bible?

I believe that God knew there would be divisions in the church and gave us the Bible to protect us from false teachers. Look at how many false teachers the Galatians were dealing with which is why Paul wrote his letter to them. If the Galatians had simply relied on the teachings of their church they would have gone completely astray. We have scripture to clarify things for us. It helps us to recognize when someone is teaching falsely. Many churches try to teach different things. Scripture is the one common denominator we have.

Go back and read 1 Corinthians where paul writes about division in the church. This is where scripture is critical for us to have.
 
I can never understand why Catholics believe anyone lived their life without sin including Mary and/or John the Baptist. As Romans 3 verse 23 states we all have sinned and fall short. That is the importance of believing in Jesus. There is no biblical support for Mary or anyone living a life without sin. Paul tells us that the only person who walked the face of this earth without sinning is Jesus. It doesn’t matter what any Pope states. Mary and John the Baptist both needed Jesus for salvation.

Romans 5 12 also confirms this. Sin came into the world from Adam and therefore sin and death spread to all men. It doesn’t state with the exception of Mary and John the Baptist or any person.
This thread is about Original Sin; you are quibbling about actual sin. It’s another subject altogether.
 
I’m not sure what makes you think I am outside the church. I’m a devout Christian which makes me very much a part of the church. I was born and raised in a catholic church but left because I disagree with many teachings. Some of which have strong paganistic ties. I’m not a protestant nor do I support any specific religious denomination. You say that no one held the view of Mary not sinning until the refomation. That just doesn’t make sense. Do you think that eveyone just waited until the reformation to change their mind. Or did they always hold that view and used the reformation as a forum to express that opinion? Seems the later makes more sense.

I’m a Christian in every sense of the word and consider the Bible to be the revelation of God and that it overrules any church tradition. You may believe Mary didn’t sin but the Bible clearly tells us that all men have sinned and fall short. No exceptions. It’s not a matter of reading the Bible in a vacuum although I’m not sure what that is supposed to mean. I’ve studied the Bible more now than when I was in Catholic school. We were never taught to read the Bible.

Catholics go by what they are taught by their church and most have never even laid their eyes on a copy of the Bible. Then they try to argue like they know what they are talking about. My parents are like that and many relatives who are still Catholic. Once I’ve shown them scripture and can refute many of their claims they have no response other than, “I’ve never read the Bible so I don’t know”.
Generally Catholics will have a number of bibles, and if they are better educated, they will also have a set of commentaries, such as the Anchor Bible Series, the Abingdon Bible Commentary, and study Bibles.
 
This thread is about Original Sin; you are quibbling about actual sin. It’s another subject altogether.
Original sin is the intent to commit actual sin. We’re all born with the stain of original sin. I was merely commenting that the Bible never tells us that anyone including Mary or John the Baptist was born free of original sin. It’s not scriptural.

Peace.
 
OK! OK! I make an attempt at explaining something that is quite difficult to explain, but it will take quite a few words.

Beckett appeared in the theater of the absurd and grew world fame with his play ‘Waiting for Godot’. Many of his existential and intellectual friends thought it was an attack on Christianity, but in reality it is a ‘darkness was on the face of the deep’ world that no one could comprehend as its day had not, and still hasn’t come. Beckett invented the theatrical form called the Tragicomedy. He used this, underlining to refer to (sweet = comedy) and (bitter = tragedy). Everyone of the characters in Beckett’s prose and plays have an intense knowledge of Religious, particularly Catholic perceptions, and their sufferings are so tremendous as to speak more distinctly of ‘darkness on the face of the deep’. Beckett theorized that the two witnesses will be perceived as the two beasts by those with his mark, as Daniel only mentions one period of 42 months. And as far as your Needing endlessly dogmatic link ‘Saint John: The Baptist’ with Original sin, because of the endless scholarly pursuits of the Catholic Church have yielded an approximation and spiritual definition, with all my love for the Church’s achievements, as Alfred Schnittke the famous Composer of Russia and devoted Catholic new, within the mystery of original sin is the mystery of God himself. Samuel = God’s venom
If you want an explanation of original sin you only need to read the CCC. Don’t tell me some composer knows better than the Church about original sin!
As for your comments above how do they relate to John the Baptist.
 
Original sin is the intent to commit actual sin. We’re all born with the stain of original sin. I was merely commenting that the Bible never tells us that anyone including Mary or John the Baptist was born free of original sin. It’s not scriptural.

Peace.
Actually, the term “original sin” is not scriptural. It was formulated by the Catholic Church. By your lights, it should be rejected as a product of the early Church Fathers (Augustine) and therefore, “false doctrine.” Ditto the Trinity. Maybe you should go with Oneness Pentecostal?
 
So are most of us in agreement that he was born free of original sin but concieved in original sin?

Peace,
David
 
No, everyone who is human was born in original sin. Original sin is not a sin that you are accounting for on Judgment Day, except only for Adam and Eve, but it is why your nature is fallen.
 
No, everyone who is human was born in original sin. Original sin is not a sin that you are accounting for on Judgment Day, except only for Adam and Eve, but it is why your nature is fallen.
NOT TRUE.

John the Baptist was conceived in original sin but born free from original sin.
Mary was neither conceived nor born in original sin.
 
If you want an explanation of original sin you only need to read the CCC. Don’t tell me some composer knows better than the Church about original sin!
As for your comments above how do they relate to John the Baptist.
I didn’t say some composer, I was attempting to say ‘neither a theological scholar’. This is why a turn toward the original church fathers and their more meek yet intelligent ‘overall admission of their ignorance of the mysteries of what is actually is’, take a look at St. Augustine’s Confessions if you still lack understanding? (Particularly Book I)
 
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