B
BenjaminJ
Guest
You can know things based on similar practices even if you have no evidence on that specific thing.
- Status
T
tafan2
Guest
At what point then does it become fact?
B
BenjaminJ
Guest
To the point that its unequivocal? Probably cant. To the point that its safe to assume based on similarities and customs of the time? Pretty easy.
S
sudy
Guest
I don’t know.
Again, I don’t know. I’ve been under the impression that the Church has supreme authority, so I’m just following what my bishop has said.
I can say with certainty that I wish I hadn’t gotten involved in this very sensitive topic. I wasn’t intending to come between a person and their rights, or to upset anyone. I just know that breathing includes moisture and so I understood why this might be problematic to the way I understand receiving on the tongue. If you know better then do what you believe is right.
Again, I don’t know. I’ve been under the impression that the Church has supreme authority, so I’m just following what my bishop has said.
I can say with certainty that I wish I hadn’t gotten involved in this very sensitive topic. I wasn’t intending to come between a person and their rights, or to upset anyone. I just know that breathing includes moisture and so I understood why this might be problematic to the way I understand receiving on the tongue. If you know better then do what you believe is right.
P
phil19034
Guest
I’ll have to search for webpage that I read. I think was only last week. Unfortunately, I didn’t save the site.phil19034:
I have never seen that, neither in St. Cyril’s writings, nor in the writings of any of his contemporaries. This claim needs documentation; otherwise, it can be studiously ignored.
D
But the website shows OTHER quotes for many Saints and the Church saying that the host could only touch the palm of the hand & then you had to bow down to host to receive Him in order to prevent crumbs from falling. The laity were not allowed to use their fingers because moving the host could case very tiny crumbs (not visible to the eyes) to fall.
They were limiting the movement.
This practice is actually what lead to communion on the tongue while kneeling.
Last edited:
P
phil19034
Guest
My grandmother is left handed.
Back in the 1930s and 40s, the nuns used to smack my grandmother’s left hand with a ruler every time she attempted to write with the left hand. They forced her to use her right hand because they said left handedness was the mark of the devil.
Last edited:
S
stpurl
Guest
It wasn’t just the nuns. When I was in elementary school several decades ago it was the young fresh out of teacher college laywoman who tied my left arm behind me in 1st grade. By the time I had a Sister (Sister of Mercy) in 2nd grade the damage was done (I do not write well with my left hand though it use it for many activities instinctively) and was she ANGRY! Angry at the prevalent SECULAR mindset which, while it did not find the left hand ‘of the devil’ STILL sought to ‘correct’ the handed ness on the grounds of secular reasoning —i.e., ‘the child was young enough to be retrained’, make the child feel normal, ‘not having to make left sided desks, tools, etc more available if children were made right-handed’ etc, etc. This was much more a product of secular 1950s and 60s ‘utilitarianism and CONFORMITY” but when caught out, the many secular groups tried to blame it all on ‘ignorant religious practices.’
Yeah right.
Yeah right.
P
phil19034
Guest
My grandmother was in school during the 30s and 40s.
Z
ziapueblo
Guest
Proper catechesis on reception in the hand is key. The teaching of St. Cyril of Jerusalem can simply be printed on a leaflet and given to everybody.
From Cyril’s “Catechetical Lecture 23”:
Ironically, by this time, the fear of profanation was greatly reduced, anyway, since the laity had all but ceased to receive the Eucharist.
St Cyril simply says that, after having drunk from the Cup, we should touch our lips and then make the sign of the Cross upon our forehead.
ZP
From Cyril’s “Catechetical Lecture 23”:
- After this ye hear the chanter inviting you with a sacred melody to the communion of the Holy Mysteries, and saying, O taste and see that the Lord is good. Trust not the judgment to your bodily palate no, but to faith unfaltering; for they who taste are bidden to taste, not bread and wine, but the anti-typical Body and Blood of Christ.
- In approaching therefore, come not with your wrists extended, or your fingers spread; but make your left hand a throne for the right, as for that which is to receive a King. And having hollowed your palm, receive the Body of Christ, saying over it, Amen. So then after having carefully hallowed your eyes by the touch of the Holy Body, partake of it; giving heed lest you lose any portion thereof ; for whatever you lose, is evidently a loss to you as it were from one of your own members. For tell me, if any one gave you grains of gold, would you not hold them with all carefulness, being on your guard against losing any of them, and suffering loss? Will you not then much more carefully keep watch, that not a crumb fall from you of what is more precious than gold and precious stones?
- Then after you have partaken of the Body of Christ, draw near also to the Cup of His Blood; not stretching forth your hands, but bending , and saying with an air of worship and reverence, Amen , hallow yourself by partaking also of the Blood of Christ. And while the moisture is still upon your lips, touch it with your hands, and hallow your eyes and brow and the other organs of sense. Then wait for the prayer, and give thanks unto God, who has accounted you worthy of so great mysteries.
Ironically, by this time, the fear of profanation was greatly reduced, anyway, since the laity had all but ceased to receive the Eucharist.
St Cyril simply says that, after having drunk from the Cup, we should touch our lips and then make the sign of the Cross upon our forehead.
ZP
O
otjm
Guest
That is not what the Church teaches; by the authority granted by Christ, CITH is approved.
If you don’t like to receive that way, that is an aspect of your personal piety and no on has the right to question it.
Likewise, you do not have the right to question someone else’s piety.
T
thursday63
Guest
Thanks for a very interesting post. I looked up your reference and the only difference I see is that my copy has “hallowed thy palm” instead of "hollowed thy palm. Several things occur to me. I am assuming you bend your neck over your palm and take the host from palm to mouth. Given the shape of modern day hosts this seems kind of difficult. Do you know anything about the size and shape of the hosts back then? Also did they use leavened or unleavened hosts? I think I have heard that in the Eastern Church they use leavened bread.
Z
ziapueblo
Guest
Good question . . . @dochawk?
We Easterners do use leavened bread :+1:t3:
ZP
J
Jen95
Guest
But if you go to EF you don’t say amen. So that would be less germy, correct?whatistrue:
I will take your word for it. My other point stands, if one breathes on the MHC while saying amen, it makes no difference if one’s intent is to receive in the hand or on the tongue after that point.
J
Jen95
Guest
But St. Cyril’s time is not in any of our lifetimes. Receiving on the tongue, however, is, and in fact it was unthinkable before 1965-ish that laity would handle the host in any way.
Last edited:
T
tafan2
Guest
That is correct. And kneeling at an altar rail is also inherently more safe IMO. The communicant has had time to settlr into place, he/she us belie the priest.
S
steph03
Guest
Well for ‘most’ Catholics today who are 40 and below, receiving anywhere other than in the hand has not been seen. As the TLM is still rather uncommon. Eastern Catholics would argue that other than a spoon they have never seen another way of receiving communion.
J
Jen95
Guest
Yes, but Catholics under 40 weren’t taught that it is wrong and probably sacriligious to take communion on the tongue.
And I’ve seen people taking communion on the tongue at most every parish I’ve ever visited. It’s certainly not unheard of and plenty of Catholics take communion on the tongue at OF. My own kids were taught to take communion on the tongue and they are way under 40.
Last edited:
S
steph03
Guest
I guess it is one of those things were the Church adapted to the times. Not really doctrinal, but discipline. Similar to the time when a child born out of wedlock was not allowed to become a priest.which is no longer the case today…steph03:
Yes, but Catholics under 40 weren’t taught that it is wrong and probably sacriligious to take communion on the tongue.
And I’ve seen people taking communion on the tongue at most every parish I’ve ever visited. It’s certainly not unheard of and plenty of Catholics take communion on the tongue at OF. My own kids were taught to take communion on the tongue and they are way under 40.
Last edited:
D
dochawk
Guest
I suspect that, save for zombies and vampires, this is quite common . . .I know that I have personally breathed onto the priest’s hand while saying ‘Amen’. I may be unique in thisI don’t know.
My priest actually names a year from time to time, when the RC went to unleavened. I want to say early 900s, (934?), but . . .
And, I think from other sources, a desire for a “perfect” or ideal, thus the round stamped host.
And mixed in here, I forget how, the less frequent reception.
Only since the first century or so
But, again, I understand that the west also used to do the same, for several centuries.
Z
ziapueblo
Guest
Gotcha.
And I researched that communion on the tongue was introduced in the 13th century, after one of the Lateran councils decided the laity should receive under the species of the Body of Christ alone, and the unleavened Host would be placed directly on the recipient’s tongue, to minimize the possibility of “profanation” by the icky lay people.
Of course, my research may need some backing up
ZP
And I researched that communion on the tongue was introduced in the 13th century, after one of the Lateran councils decided the laity should receive under the species of the Body of Christ alone, and the unleavened Host would be placed directly on the recipient’s tongue, to minimize the possibility of “profanation” by the icky lay people.
Of course, my research may need some backing up
ZP
- Status